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Thread: The Swastika (Fyrfos)

  1. #21
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    Why the Devil, Illusy, are we giving primacy to the Indian term for this old European symbol, when their development of it was but an annex, and a short lived one, to the main story of the development of the peoples who first used it? The mongrelised descendants of the Aryans are the last of us to be actually actively using it in religious contexts as an unbroken tradition, but this should only be used for comparative purposes by us in the North. I distrust the use of Sanskrit terms as mere exoticism, or deliberate obfuscation. Why not call it something more meaningful to a Germanic ear, like the "Turning Cross"? Far more redolent of the dynamism of the symbol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Why the Devil, Illusy, are we giving primacy to the Indian term for this old European symbol, when their development of it was but an annex, and a short lived one, to the main story of the development of the peoples who first used it? The mongrelised descendants of the Aryans are the last of us to be actually actively using it in religious contexts as an unbroken tradition, but this should only be used for comparative purposes by us in the North. I distrust the use of Sanskrit terms as mere exoticism, or deliberate obfuscation. Why not call it something more meaningful to a Germanic ear, like the "Turning Cross"? Far more redolent of the dynamism of the symbol.
    Ah? What about 'Hackenkreuz' - Hooked cross?

    Or like we say, where I come from 'Kukasti križ' - has the same meaning. We never use the word 'sawstika'. In fact, the first time I heard this term was somewhere on the internet, an site on english.

    Why not use something that already exists? No need to invent more words for it.

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    Turning Cross or Hooked Cross sounds crude, basic, and devoid of any deeper meaning. The second term sounds a bit too dubious as well. I think Swastika is a fine and fitting term, but then again that is what I have known it as and called it since childhood.

    Flyfot and Yungdrung is nice as well.
    The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.
    The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.
    Because it is unfathomable,
    All we can do is describe their appearance.
    -Tao teh Ching

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohenheim View Post
    Ah? What about 'Hackenkreuz' - Hooked cross?
    For Germans, yes, that's fine. I personally find the associations with tearing (of flesh) rather unpleasant though!
    The hooks to me a more a sign of movement and energy than something to be compared with a simple physical tool like a fishing hook.
    (And this is from a man whose entire FOLK, and the very language he's writing in, is named after the Hook of land that it came first from...:p)
    Why not use something that already exists? No need to invent more words for it.
    Inventing is better than borrowing from a far distant alien civilisation.
    Quote Originally Posted by IlluSionSxxx View Post
    The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika स्वास्तिक ) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) or left-facing (卍) forms. The term is derived from Sanskrit svasti, meaning well-being. The Thai greeting sawasdee is from the same root and carries the same implication.
    So to say 'swastika' is merely to call this sign a "wellness-thing".
    I don't see anything 'profound' in that.
    The symbol occurs in other Asian, European, African and Native American cultures ]
    Really? I'd be interested to hear of examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakravartin View Post
    Turning Cross or Hooked Cross sounds crude, basic, and devoid of any deeper meaning.
    Just like the Sanskrit does, to a native speaker!!! eyes:
    The second term sounds a bit too dubious as well.
    Which? Hohenheim's Slavonic one? It's alright for Jugoslavs to use if they're happy with it, and if it's a true native term. I do wonder about the latter point though - is it not just a translation from the German, dating from the War? Russian folk art used the motif, but I've yet to find the name they used for it before bookish people taught them the Indian word. (I'm reading a big fat book on Slavonic Heathenry now, so it must be in there eventually, I just haven't got up to that bit yet! Will yet yous know when I am.)
    I think Swastika is a fine and fitting term, but then again that is what I have known it as and called it since childhood.
    If your town was full of Subcontinentals, instead of Anatolians, you might think otherwise. Whatever grand philosophies their best people might have thought of in the past, the present state of the people rather puts you off glorifying their heritage too much, especially at the expense of your own.

    I fear you're too susceptible to exoticism, Chakravartin. Even in selecting a name. I know I'm being partly unreasonable and kneejerk instinctive here, but still... Would you be so attracted by it all, if it didn't have mysterious sounding names? I'm sure you've penetrated beyond this initial attraction, but you can't deny its primacy of role for some people at least.
    Flyfot and Yungdrung is nice as well.
    FYLfot, is not a good term, for as far as I've been able to determine, it just means 'filler at the foot of a page', and refers to the use by Christian scribes, and merely as a decorative space filler. Wholly inappropriate for those who see anything more significant in it.

    Yungdrung is new to me. What is it? Young Warrior? What language is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    So to say 'swastika' is merely to call this sign a "wellness-thing".
    I don't see anything 'profound' in that.
    Still better than turning or hooked thing... And that is just one of the supposed translations or meanings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Really? I'd be interested to hear of examples.
    Amerindian Swastikas...







    Unfortunately African swastikas are a bit more hard to find...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Just like the Sanskrit does, to a native speaker!!! eyes:
    Not the same translations or meanings...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Which? Hohenheim's Slavonic one? It's alright for Jugoslavs to use if they're happy with it, and if it's a true native term. I do wonder about the latter point though - is it not just a translation from the German, dating from the War? Russian folk art used the motif, but I've yet to find the name they used for it before bookish people taught them the Indian word. (I'm reading a big fat book on Slavonic Heathenry now, so it must be in there eventually, I just haven't got up to that bit yet! Will yet yous know when I am.)
    I was referring to the term "Hooked Cross".

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    If your town was full of Subcontinentals, instead of Anatolians, you might think otherwise. Whatever grand philosophies their best people might have thought of in the past, the present state of the people rather puts you off glorifying their heritage too much, especially at the expense of your own.
    Nothing wrong with glorifying what has been lost and reclaimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    I fear you're too susceptible to exoticism, Chakravartin. Even in selecting a name. I know I'm being partly unreasonable and kneejerk instinctive here, but still... Would you be so attracted by it all, if it didn't have mysterious sounding names? I'm sure you've penetrated beyond this initial attraction, but you can't deny its primacy of role for some people at least.
    I do have an allure and a favorance to cultures and traditions which are exotic and very unique, and which have remained traditional and unique. But, it has nothing to do with my taste in usernames, it is just my nature to use obscure or appearingly meaningless names or labels without providing a direct translation, solid definition, or meaning which I instead keep to myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    FYLfot, is not a good term, for as far as I've been able to determine, it just means 'filler at the foot of a page', and refers to the use by Christian scribes, and merely as a decorative space filler. Wholly inappropriate for those who see anything more significant in it.

    Yungdrung is new to me. What is it? Young Warrior? What language is it?
    You may have a point about Flyfot.

    Yungdrung is just what a Swastika is referred to in Bön, the indigenous religion of Tibet and one of the oldest surviving religions. Yungdrung has a meaning alluding to eternity.
    The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.
    The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.
    Because it is unfathomable,
    All we can do is describe their appearance.
    -Tao teh Ching

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakravartin View Post
    You may have a point about Flyfot.
    Then again, I may not! See:
    Definitions, Description & Origin

    There are several varieties possibly related to the Swastika which have been found in almost every part of the globe, and though the relation may appear slight, and at first sight difficult to trace, yet it will appear more or less intimate as the examination is pursued through its ramifications. As this paper is an investigation into and report upon the facts rather than conclusions to be drawn from them, it is deemed wise to give those forms bearing even possible relations to the Swastika. Certain of them have been accepted by the author as related to the Swastika, while others have been rejected; but this rejection has been confined to cases where the known facts seemed to justify another origin for the symbol, Speculation has been avoided.


    Names and Definitions of the Swastika.

    The Swastika has been called by different names in different countries, though nearly all countries have in later years accepted the ancient Sanskrit name of Swastika; and this name is recommended as the most definite and certain, being now the most general and, indeed, almost universal. It was formerly spelled s-v-a-s-t-i-c-a and s-u-a-s-t-i-k-a, but the later spelling, both English and French, is s-w-a-s-t-i-k-a. The definition and etymology of the word is thus given in Littre's French Dictionary:

    Svastika, or Swastika, a mystic figure used by several (East) Indian sects. It was equally well known to the Brahmins as to the Buddhists. Most of the rock inscriptions in the Buddhist caverns in the west of India are preceded or followed by the holy (sacramental) sign of the Swastika. (Eug. Burnouf, "Le Lotus de la bonne loi." Paris, 1852, p.625.) It was seen on the vases and pottery of Rhodes (Cyprus) and Etruria. (F. Delaunay, Jour. off., Nov. 18, 1873, p.7024,3d col.)
    Etymology: A Sanskrit word signifying happiness, pleasure, good luck. It is composed of Su (equivalent of the Greek ev), "good" and asti, "being" "good being," with the suffix ka (Greek ka, Latin co).
    In the "Revue d'Ethnographie" (iv, 1885, p. 329), Mr. Dumoutier gives the following analysis of the Sanskrit, swastika:
    Su, radical, signifying good, well, excellent, or suridas, prosperity.
    Auti, third person, singular, indicative present of the verbs as, to be, which is sum in Latin.
    Ka, suffix forming the substantive.
    Professor Whitney in the Century Dictionary says, Swastika---[Sanskrit, lit. "of good fortune." Svasti (Su, well, + asti, being), welfare.] Same as fylfot. Compare Crux ansata and gammadion.
    In "Ilios" (p.347), Max Müller says:
    Ethnologically, Svastika is derived from srasti, and svasti from su, "well," and as, "to be." Svasti occurs frequently in the Veda, both as a noun in a sense of happiness, and as an adverb in the sense of "well" or "hail!" It corresponds to the Greek enedrea, such as are found most frequently among Buddhists and Jainas.

    M. Eugèue Burnouf (1) defines the mark Swastika as follows:

    A monogrammatic sign of four branches, of which the ends are curved at right angles, the name signifying, literally, the sign of benediction or good augury.
    The foregoing explanations relate only to the present accepted name "Swastika." The sign Swastika must have existed long before the name was given to it. It must have been in existence long before the Buddhist religion of the Sanskrit language.
    In Great Britain the common name given to the Swastika from Anglo-Saxon times by those who apparently had no knowledge whence it came, or that it came from any other than their own country was Fylfot, said to have been derived from the Anglo-Saxon fower fot, meaning four-footed, or many-footed. (2)
    George Waring, in his work entitled "Ceramie Art in Remote Ages"(p.10), says:

    The word [Fylfot] is Scandinavian and is compounded of Old Norse fiël, equivalent to the Anglo-Saxon fela, German viel, many, and fotr, foot, the many-footed figure. * * * It is desirable to have some settled name by which to describe it - we will take the simplest and most descriptive, the "Fylfot."

    He thus transgresses one of the oldest and soundest rules of scientific nomenclature, and ignores the fact that the name Swastika has been employed for this sign in the Sanskrit language (the etymology of the word naturally gave it the name Svastika, sv–good or well, asti–to be or being, or it is) and that two thousand and more years of use in Asia and Europe had sanctioned and sanctified that as its name. The use of Fylfot is confined to comparatively few persons in Great Britain and, possibly, Scandinavia. Outside of these countries it is scarcely known, used, or understood.
    There seems to be a little dispute on this one.

    The above is from an interesting text on Northvegr:
    http://www.northvegr.org/lore/swastika/index.php
    THE SWASTIKA
    Transcribed by Alfta Svani Lothursdottir

    This report presented by Thomas Wilson Curator, Department of Prehistoric Anthropology, U.S. National Museum, in 1894, is here reproduced in the hopes of educating our fellow Heathens as well as the general public about the Swastika, one of Heathenism's oldest and most holy of symbols. Since this report was made long before the misuse of this holy symbol by the Nazi's you will find an unprejudiced presentation of the Swastika and it's history. Read on and learn the true history of this holy symbol.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Why the Devil, Illusy, are we giving primacy to the Indian term for this old European symbol, when their development of it was but an annex, and a short lived one, to the main story of the development of the peoples who first used it?
    My mistake. I should have used the term Hakenkreuz or Fylfot, I agree.

    In my own language the term hakenkruis is usually used. This is the Dutch equivalent for the german word Hakenkreuz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Which? Hohenheim's Slavonic one? It's alright for Jugoslavs to use if they're happy with it, and if it's a true native term. I do wonder about the latter point though - is it not just a translation from the German, dating from the War? Russian folk art used the motif, but I've yet to find the name they used for it before bookish people taught them the Indian word. (I'm reading a big fat book on Slavonic Heathenry now, so it must be in there eventually, I just haven't got up to that bit yet! Will yet yous know when I am.)
    It's called a Kolovrat or Kolovorot (Коловрат or Коловорот), which can be the name used for the "classical" swastika and the following symbol (of the same meaning of course):


    It means "sewing stool" also, following the form, but is a Solar symbol in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldteufel View Post
    It means "sewing stool" also, following the form, but is a Solar symbol in general.
    Grr the picture link's not working! :
    As a Russian speaker, the term seems to have the elements 'wheel/circle' and 'turn', where did you get this sewing stool idea from? Sorry, don't mean to seem too sceptical and pedantic, just curious! :p

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    Well, my grandmother used to call the sewing-stool that way.

    You are right in your comment on the word containing "wheel" and "turning" or simply motion.

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