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Thread: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordhammer
    1/16th Negroid is white to you?
    Well, it's not carved in stone. It's just a rule of the thumb; there can be cases where a 1/16th person could be considered non-White.

    The 1/16th rule was former American law concerning Mongoloid admixture, not Negroid.
    Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Negroid has always been a "one-drop rule".
    As PeterMW asked; how small is 'one-drop'?
    I think that, in the end, we can do no other than draw a relatively arbitrary line; a rule of the thumb. The 1/16th rule may be useful.

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    It is OK to have the one drop rule for negroid/caucasoid mixtures, but let us be honest, it would be very difficult to recognise 1/16th black as a negroid phenotype. That would be beyond passing, wouldn't it? I have been to Portugal quite a few times and I haven't noticed any conspicuous negroid types there, so the miscegenation took place centuries ago. I would consider the Portuguese as being caucasian Med types. I would have thought the genetic influence of the Moors and Jews would have been more significant to Portugal and Spain than any odd number of black slaves.

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    It is OK to have the one drop rule for negroid/caucasoid mixtures, but let us be honest, it would be very difficult to recognise 1/16th black as a negroid phenotype.
    1/16th means one parent of one of your grandparents was non-White, and all your other direct ancestors were White. Most of the times this is barely - if at all - detectable in your physical appearance.

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    '' O trabalho de Antonio Amorim investiga as histórias das linhagens masculina (DNA do cromossomo Y) e feminina (DNA das mitocôndrias) e conclui que são inteiramente distintas. Segundo o autor, "enquanto existe uma significativa proporção de influxo gênico subsaariano nas linhagens femininas, ele está ausente ... nas linhagens masculinas" (p. 38). Segundo Amorim, a interpretação mais plausível residiria no fato de que "enquanto os descendentes dos cruzamentos entre os portugueses e escravas existiram e deixaram descendência, o cruzamento recíproco ou não existiu ou não deixou frutos em número detectável".

    WAIZBORT, Ricardo. The quest for intelligibility in Brazilian culture: fragments of an evolutional portrait. Hist. cienc. saude-Manguinhos, Sept./Dec. 2003, vol.10, no.3, p.1105-1113. ISSN 0104-5970

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclides
    '' O trabalho de Antonio Amorim investiga as histórias das linhagens masculina (DNA do cromossomo Y) e feminina (DNA das mitocôndrias) e conclui que são inteiramente distintas. Segundo o autor, "enquanto existe uma significativa proporção de influxo gênico subsaariano nas linhagens femininas, ele está ausente ... nas linhagens masculinas" (p. 38). Segundo Amorim, a interpretação mais plausível residiria no fato de que "enquanto os descendentes dos cruzamentos entre os portugueses e escravas existiram e deixaram descendência, o cruzamento recíproco ou não existiu ou não deixou frutos em número detectável".

    WAIZBORT, Ricardo. The quest for intelligibility in Brazilian culture: fragments of an evolutional portrait. Hist. cienc. saude-Manguinhos, Sept./Dec. 2003, vol.10, no.3, p.1105-1113. ISSN 0104-5970
    hum...
    I bet allmoust all the slaves back in the XV and XVI centuries where MALES!

    I repeat, the slaves that portugal had where MALES 95% or even more!
    And again this test says there are no Y male sub-saharan genes in Portugal?

    So, that 5% to 9.5% of MTDNA genes are probably not from our recent history, it must be very old stuff, because there were no lack of WHITE womans here!
    The U6 is not subsaharan but I believe it's stuff from middle east that get an mutation in north-africa to U6, so it might be even less than 6% of MTDNA overal in portugal?

    My guess is 3% of old (neolithic invasions?) subsharan genes, because there are no male subsaharan genes...

    if less than 6% of the womans have subsaharan (U6 is not subsaharan) genes then if we add the males we get 3% or less of subsaharan genes.


    And remember ALL european countries have typically 1-2% of subsaharan genes, there were no full isolation, of course more to the north the less the negroid genes... (With some minor increase in some places that had african colonies.)

    Btw white and Black couples were FORBIDDEN BY LAW in Portugal until the XIX century...I guess this is something you should know!

    If we have subsaharan genes is because we were not isolated, and because of that same reason we have subsaharan genes even in norway. Old stuff!
    probably when the sahara went into desert and some of those people went north.
    Last edited by Vitor; Monday, February 14th, 2005 at 10:47 PM.

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    haplogroup U6 (Salas et al. 2002), which
    perhaps originated in the Near East and spread into
    North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA)
    (Maca-Meyer et al. 2003).
    So only slighty more of subsaharan genes than the rest of europe...
    2-3% instead of 1-2%?

    Remember there are more people in the litoral and north of the country...
    2-3% might be the correct number!
    Last edited by Vitor; Monday, February 14th, 2005 at 08:12 PM.

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    mt-DNA haplogroup L (sub-saharan) is widespread all over Portugal and it´s related to absorved Black Slaves. In Norway this marker is much less frequent, and related to modern migrations. Remember that Scandinavian countries are no more '' a nordic reservatoir '' and received a lot of immigrants in last decades.

    U6 is restricted to North Portugal ( it is also found in Galicia ),but it´s rare or absent in Southern areas.Some authors ( Arnaiz-Villena,Maca-Meyer ) consider that, at least in part, this Northwest African influence was a consequence of prehistoric links between Iberians and North Africans.But, as we know, the Moorish domination in Iberian Peninsula was very intense,and this country also received Moorish Slaves ( That were also absorved ).

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor

    Btw white and Black couples were FORBIDDEN BY LAW in Portugal until the XIX century...I guess this is something you should know!

    .

    Portuguese people are well knowed by their indulgence and their absence of '' racial identity '', that turned them great miscigenators,not only in their colonies , but also in their own country.

    In Madeira Island for example, Slaves were, in 1552 10% of the population and gradually became landowners completely integrated into the society. The sub-Saharan and Moorish slaves gained theirfree status in Madeira as much as 300 years before the official abolition of the slave trade. ( Pereira ECN (1989) Ilhas de Zarco, 4th edn, vol II. Câmara Municipal Funchal, Funchal ).

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    hum...

    And remember ALL european countries have typically 1-2% of subsaharan genes, there were no full isolation, of course more to the north the less the negroid genes... (With some minor increase in some places that had african colonies.).

    I would like to know this article, showing that ALL european countries have typically 1-2% of subsaharan genes... I just know another work talking about subsaharan mtDNA in Europe ( mtDNA...this thread topic ) , that I posted before. ( http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=9393 )

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    If we have subsaharan genes is because we were not isolated, and because of that same reason we have subsaharan genes even in norway. Old stuff!
    probably when the sahara went into desert and some of those people went north.
    Sorry, but you are wrong.'' You '' (Portugal ) have subsaharan genes because in the past Portuguese man mixed with their female slaves. The comparation you did , like your theory, makes no sense...If you consider the Slave Trade in Portugal as being ''old '' in your own point of view, that´s ok... but The genetic history of Norway is a little different...

    Take a look :
    Norwegian mtDNA and Y chromosome
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=9393

    ``One * mtDNA molecule displayed an L2 haplotype, that is typically Afri-can,but is also sporadically found in Southern Europe
    and is likely to be a result of more RECENT gene flow. ´´

    (Different genetic components in the Norwegian
    population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and
    Y chromosome polymorphisms - European Journal of Human Genetics (2002) 10, 521-529. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5200834 )



    * Just one...
    Last edited by Euclides; Thursday, February 17th, 2005 at 07:18 AM.

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    Post Re: Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal

    First do you know why they used slaves as sexual partners in Brazil?
    yap there were no portuguese womans around!

    If you think that portuguese were different and are blind for races you are Wrong!

    Brasiilian whites have more than 70% of non european mithocondria.

    So in a sense white Brazilian are not european!

    But if you go to the Y-haplogroup it's allmoust entirely european!
    So, how come a blind racial portuguese could not allowed those male african or indians genes to enter into the brazilian "white" gene pool?
    hum?

    There were no lack of europeans MALES, but there were lack of european ladies, that was why they used those .

    The indians were accepted, most of that female genes are form indians, they were treated as equals, but sorry that didn't happen with the africans...

    For instance, Marques do pombal (one past portuguese/brazil ruler) abolish the marriages between africans and europeans it was as was before FORBIDDEN.
    But not the indians ones...that was accepted!

    If you knew what was the slaves used for you would knew that most slaves were MALES, so... why it was the womans that put more genes in here?

    Racism?
    Are the portuguese womans the only racist gender in portugal?
    maybe that is true...


    those MTDNA genes are possible from north african....go find what are the most common MTDNA in northern africa.

    Those investigators, like good multiculturalist PC scientists want to promote unity between africans and Portuguese...
    bullshit!

    AGain that african genes are not more than 3% of all the genes (males and females), and are probably consequence of muslim invasions or something much older...much older! not only from the slave trade.

    slaves were not cheap and most of portuguese population were poor!
    and the racial union in portugal was FORBIDDEN, by the society and by the law.
    impossible!

    In brazil it was different!

    They were used in the process of colonization of former colnies by the kings, but not here...it was already colonized you see!
    Last edited by Vitor; Tuesday, February 22nd, 2005 at 10:54 PM.

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