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Thread: Sparta, the First National Socialist State

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    Member Prince Eugen's Avatar
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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Just to restore the historic truth
    ANCIENT HELLENES DIDN'T tolerate homosexulity .pedophiles in Ancient Sparta they were executed and in Ancient Athens loose their political lifes.
    So ,dear Moody Lawless don't believe the political corect propaganda who want to excuss homosexuality.
    Ancient Hellas was the inspiration for Adolf Hitler to create N.S.movement.
    Ancient Sparta were indoeuropean Hellenes and for that reason they were not nordics (i respect nordics as much as i respect every white subrace group).
    German soldiers during WW2 were brave and that is not a statement but a fact!!!They allways fought superior forces and there is a myth that their enemies had in the begining inferior weapons.French army during 1940 had more tanks and airplanes than Wehrmacht .They just loose the war because Germans used modern war tactics and they had better dissipline and moral than the French.
    As the 300 of king Leonidas fought till the end at Thermopyles the German units fought till the end many times especially during the battle of Berlin.
    ME NE FREGO

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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Eagle
    So which culture's part are Greeks after all, feel free to tell us "Armenian ...hooligan" ...you seem to know so much....
    I do not see Greece anywhere on this map.



    In any case, if you beleive the spread of the Aryan civilization from Anatolia into Europe and Asia, you would know that Indo-Hittite does not translate into Italians, Greeks, Spaniards (Romance, Ancient Greek, Latin etc), but rather the linguistic formation of the Germanic, Slavic, Iranic/Afghan, Anatolian, and Hindi language subgroups.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Colin Jordan on Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    In his chapter on Eugenics [The Way Ahead Part 5], Colin Jordan refers to Sparta in relation to N-S Germany;

    "The tiny Sparta of ancient times withstood and predominated over far more numerous neighbours through the promotion of quality which prompted its people to leave deformative children out on the hill-side to die.
    There we have a prospect certain to send the slobbering Christian democrat of today into a paroxysm of remorse ...
    Said the Greek philosopher Aristotle of the Spartan: 'Such a man chooses to live nobly for a year rather than to pass many years in ordinary life, and he will rather do one great and noble deed than many small ones' ...
    With the N-S attainment of power in Germany, there came into being the first state in the modern world based on the bedrock of systematic, racial betterment, pursuant to Adolf Hitler's dictum in 'Mein Kampf': 'The world-outlook which bases the State on the racial idea must finally succeed in bringing about a nobler era, in which men will no longer pay exclusive attention to breeding and rearing pedigree dogs and horses and cats, but will endeavour to improve the breed of the human race itself' ..."
    [Jordan ib.,]

    To Friedrich Nietzsche, Judaeo-Christianity represents the 'total revolt of everything downtrodden, miserable, ill-begotten, botched, against "pedigree"'.
    [Nietzsche, 'Twilight']

    This is why the idea of a 'Christian Sparta' is stuff and nonsense.
    The Spartan ideal is completely AT ODDS with the Christian.

    Jordan with John Tyndall and others at a meeting of the World Union of National Socialists;
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Wulf's Avatar
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    Post Sparta: The First National Socialist State

    When one thinks of “National Socialism,” images of sunwheels, iron crosses, and “Deutschland über Alles” inevitably enter the mind. However, nearly three thousand years before the birth of the Third Reich, there existed a state which served as the prototype for was to come in the first half of the twentieth century. From the hallowed battlefields of Hellas I introduce to you the Laconian nation-state of Sparta, the model for modern National Socialism.

    Sparta was, of course, the home of the Spartans, one of the most revered peoples in the history of the world. Today “Spartan” is and adjective used to describe a strict and almost ascetic lifestyle and for good reason: the Spartans themselves led very strict and definitely ascetic lives. Everyone has heard the tales of Spartan youths being whisked away from their mothers at the tender age of seven to enter into a life of servitude to the state. More savvy readers will know of the training undergone by these children and will gladly tell you about the whippings, the beatings, and the seemingly absurd physical/psychological conditioning imposed upon these innocents. At this point, an inexperienced reader would be forced to ask, “what’s so glorious about all of this?” Allow me to answer.

    First, we must begin with a more in-depth description of Spartan culture. Sparta began as a small city-state on the Greek isle of Laconia. After centuries of agricultural peace, the most revered king of Sparta, Lykourgos, restructured Sparta’s way of life entirely during the middle of the eighth century BC. Spartans existed for Sparta. Currency was abolished. Anything that was seen as over-indulgent or unnecessary to the survival of the Spartan nation was eradicated (except in some rare cases of art). They waged war on their Laconian neighbors and soon conquered the Achaeans and the Ionians. It is at this point (around 690 BC) that the class system of Sparta developed.

    All Spartans, including their conquered subjects, were divided into three groups. At the top were the hekoioi. These men and women made up the aristocratic class of Sparta and were the only true “citizens.” Only these men could serve in the military, attain political office, or attend meetings of the assembly. Despite what many anti-Spartan critics would have a person think, hekoioi women were among the freest women of the ancient world. While their male counterparts declared and fought wars, they engaged in athletic activities, ran their households, and even owned their own businesses. In fact, Aristotle once claimed that hekoioi women owned as much as forty percent of all Spartan land.

    The so-called “middle class” of Sparta were the perioikoi or the “neighbors.” As one might deduce from that translation, the perioikoi were in fact the conquered Achaean and Ionian neighbors of the ancient Spartans. They were not actually citizens of Sparta, but they enjoyed a great deal of liberty. Citizens could not participate in any business other than agriculture, so the perioikoi took over this role. They were the merchants of Sparta and many of them became wealthy off of foreign gold. Perioikoi men were occasionally drafted into the military but they saw far less combat than did the hekoioi.

    At the bottom were the helots. The helots were essentially slaves to the hekoioi and outnumbered their masters more than fifteen-to-one. The life of the helot was short, thankless, and brutal. Once a year, the hekoioi formally declared war on their slaves to thin out their numbers and discourage rebellion without technically breaking the Spartan law against murder. The hekoioi allowed their slaves to keep enough of the agriculture they produced to feed their families, but of course took the rest and put it towards the betterment of the Spartan state.

    At the age of seven, hekoioi boys were required to begin their military training. They were taught discipline, honour, and courage. Their official training ended at the age of 20, at which point they became the police of the nation. They moved along the countryside, keeping helots in line and correcting any activities which seemed rebellious or anti-Spartan. At the age of 30, hekoioi men became full citizens and were granted all the formal rights of citizenship. Military careers ended at the age of 60 and any man who reached that age earned the respect of all those around him, and rightly so. Generally speaking, the military life of the hekoioi was short. The Spartans were among the fiercest and most selfless warriors that ever lived and any man that survived his full tour of duty in the Spartan military was strong, intelligent, patriotic, and more than worthy of praise and adoration.

    What does this have to do with National Socialism? First, let’s observe the most obvious difference: class. National Socialism is at its heart anti-class and seeks to have only one body: the state and the people of which it is composed. However, it is easy to see how the idea of classlessness is embodied by Sparta: the hekoioi are analogous to the Schutzstaffel Nordics, the perioikoi represent the rest of Germany, and the helots are the societal dregs and undesirables. Classism exists in every ideology despite the efforts of the ideologues to remove it; class is unavoidable. Even Germany and Italy had classes.

    Most anti-Spartan critics say that Sparta suffered from the same flaw that all liberal/jewish philosophies suffer from: the exultation of quantity over quality. They point to the idea that the survival Sparta (i.e. the group) was more important than the survival of Spartans (i.e. the individual). This is an absurd notion. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, democracy, and all forms of Marxism exalt quantity over quality. They believe that hordes of worthless individuals make great groups simply because there are many of them. On the contrary, the Spartans believed and National Socialists believe that great individuals make great groups because they are better. It is precisely for this reason that 300 hekoioi bodyguards of the Spartan king were able to hold off 200,000 Persians at Thermopylae for nearly a week. The Spartans were more tactically skilled than the Persians. They were not mere conscripts: they were the best of the best of the best. Not even the most elite Persian fighting force, the Immortals, could break their line. In fact, it took the betrayal of Ephialtes (an hekoioi soldier whose name today is synonymous with “nightmare”) to bring the Persians victory. Similarly, this is why German officers and soldiers were able to overrun and defeat the numerically superior armies of the USSR and France. Individuality and the greatness associated with it are attained through distinction within the group, not through distinction from the group. Whether we as Aryans, as National Socialists, or merely as human beings like it or not, we are always part of a greater group. We can and will always be categorized in some manner. Receiving recognition and greatness from one’s own group only works if we lend our greatness to that group.

    Some will be quick to say that National Socialism and the Spartans are interconnected inasmuch as they liked to wage war on their neighbors. There is more to this, however, than meets the eye. Let us look at the history of Spartan warfare following the war with Persia. In the years leading up to the Peloponnesian Wars, a type of cold war developed between Sparta and Athens. Realistically it could be compared to the cold war of the twentieth century in many aspects. After the Spartans (the United States of America) and the Athenians (the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) defeated the Persians (the Axis powers), both groups began to build up blocs. First, the Spartans had the Peloponnesian League (NATO) which consisted of it and its neighboring allies, including Corinth, Thebes, Arcadia, Messenia, and others. They compelled all of these cities to accept oligarchies as their governing vessels. Likewise, the Athenians compelled their neighbors to enter into the Delian League (the Warsaw Pact) [which is sometimes referred to as the Athenian Empire (the Soviet Empire)] and made them accept democracy. Sparta did not like democracy as they felt it naturally lent itself to war and empire, so the Spartans did all they could to contain its outbreak. This may seem rather contradictory to the nature of Sparta. Most people have been indoctrinated to believe that all the Spartans cared about was waging war. This is wrong. The Spartans were some of the most race-conscious people who ever lived. They did not merely look after themselves, they looked after all Greeks. As Persia threatened to overwhelm their Hellenic brothers in Athens and elsewhere, Sparta came to their aid and destroyed the land forces of the eastern invaders. The Spartans considered themselves the champions of the Greek people and felt that the democratic tendencies of Athens and its client city-states eroded the nature of the Hellenic spirit. Although Sparta was in a positionto rule all of Greece following the war with Persia, it chose not to. Instead, it returned to its Peloponnesian League and governed its affairs at home.

    Similarly, Adolf Hitler saw himself as the liberator of all Teutonic peoples. He freed the Sudetendeutsche from Czechoslovakian control, admitted Austria (his home country) into the Third Reich, and took back the largely Germanic population of Western Poland. A National Socialist state functions to serve the needs of its race. It is for this reason that multiethnic states cannot be National Socialist states. The United States could never be a National Socialist state because of the different races inside its borders. The Spartan state existed to serve the Spartan people. The Spartans understood that they were of course part of a greater ethnic group (that is, they were Greeks just like the Delians, the Athenians, etc.) but they looked after themselves first. This is why Hitler respected the Nordic Scandinavians as well as the Britons: although there are differences between them, the Germans, the Scandinavians, and the Britons are all Teutonic peoples. Hitler did not, however, impose National Socialism on the Scandinavians or the British. The Norwegian leader Vidkun Quisling had come to accept National Socialism years earlier and with the support of the German military overthrew the social democrats of his nations. Likewise, the Swedes were left to their own devices. The Danes were the only conquered Scandinavians, and that stemmed more from political resentment than from ethnic animosity. We all know what happened with the British.

    The link between National Socialism and religion is an important one. The Spartans were the most devoutly religious people of the Greek isles. They would refuse to fight in order to observe religious festivals. They worshipped the same gods as the rest of the Greeks. Likewise, religion was an essential part of the Third Reich. Hitler himself was an atheist for the most of his life, but he understood the Wotanic spirit that lay dormant in all Aryans; he knew that by bringing back the old heathen gods of all Teutonic peoples he would strike a raw nerve. He was influenced in this by the operas of Richard Wagner and the writings of the Saxon philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, the Italian pseudo-dadaist Baron Julius Evola, and the Austrian mystic Guido von List. All of these men realized the power of the Wotanic faith. Wagner realized it aesthetically, Nietzsche morally, Jung subconsciously, Evola metaphysically, and von List symbolically. National Socialism is inherently religious as it must serve the folkish instincts of the people from which all Aryan religions descend.


    The importance of military life in National Socialism and Spartan culture cannot be stressed enough. At a young age, German youths entered the HJ; at the age of seven, Spartan youths began their military training. To die in battle was glorious for both camps. Aryan virtues of honour, strength, tactical thought, and skill were taught on the wind-swept plains of Laconia just as they were taught on the grassy plains of Germania.

    So what eventually happened to Sparta? Immediately following the Persian War, there was no fighting between the major Greek city-states. However, political intrigue and the proxy war between the Sparta-backed Sicilians and the Athenians eventually led to the beginning of the all-encompassing Peloponnesian Wars. In 404 BC, Sparta finally subjugated the Athenians. Their Theban and Corinthian allies demanded that Sparta burn Athens to the ground, but the Spartans refused: they feared the power vacuum that would be created by the loss of Athens. This was the costliest decision the oligarchy of Sparta ever made. The hekoioi leaders of post-war Athens (known as the 30 Tyrants) were so cruel to their subjects that even the King of Sparta supported the rebellion against them. Eventually Athenian democrats regained control of the city, conspired with Thebes against Sparta, and in 371 BC finally defeated their rivals at Leuctra. Two centuries later, Latin-speaking conquerors from Italy made Sparta one of their provinces.

    Today, there is very little left of Sparta. They left us no great monuments, no huge architectural achievements, no standing temples, and very little art. The Spartan landscape today is in a state of perdition. One can still make out the foundations left by some of the buildings there, but a more important foundation is as visible today as it was nearly eighty years ago: the foundation of National Socialism.


    Written by Reinhard N.

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    Post Re: Sparta: The First National Socialist State


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    Post Materials for the Study of Ancient Sparta

    "LYCURGUS
    (8th c.?): [Founder of the Spartan `Constitution']

    -Being asked why he had not made any use of written laws, he said, "Because those who are trained and disciplined in the proper discipline can determine what will best serve the occasion."

    -"Lycurgus did not put his laws in writing: in fact, one of the so-called rhetras is a prohibition to this effect. Instead he reckoned that the guiding principles of most importance for the happiness and excellence of a state would remain securely fixed if they were embedded in the citizens' character and training..." (Plutarch, Life of Lycurgus ch. 13)

    -In answer to a man who expressed surprise because (Lycurgus) did not permit a husband to spend the night with his wife, but ordained that he should be with his comrades most of the day and pass the whole night in their company, and visit his bride in secret and with great circumspection, he said, "So that they may be strong in body and never become sated, and that they may always be fresh in affection, and that the children which they bring into the world may be more sturdy."

    -He banished perfume, on the ground that it spoiled and ruined the olive oil; and also the dyer's art, on the ground that it was a flattery to the senses."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ARCHIDAMUS
    son of Zeuxidamus (King, 469-427):

    -When someone inquired of him who were at the head of Sparta, said, "The Laws, and the Magistrates in accordance with the Laws."
    -In the Peloponnesian War (431-421), when his allies sought to know hoe much money would be needed, and said that it was only fair that he should set a limit on their contributions, he said "War does not feed on fixed rations."
    -When he saw the missile shot by a catapult (which had been brought then for the first time from Sicily), he exclaimed, "Heracles! The valor of men is lost!"



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    AGESILAUS
    (King 398-360):

    -When he was still a boy, at a celebration of the festival of the GYMNOPAIDIA ['naked boys'] the Chorus Director assigned him to an inconspicuous place, and he obeyed, although he was already destined to be king. He remarked, "Good! I shall show that it is not the palces that make men to be held in honor, but the men the places."
    -He advised his friends to try to be rich, not in money, but in bravery and virtue. He found more reason for pride in his working just as hard as anybody else, and in his control over himself, rather than in being King. When he was called home by the EPHORS because of the war which had been declared against Sparta by the surrounding Greek states corrupted by the money which had been sent to them by the Persian king, he said that the good commander ought to be subject to the command of the Laws; and thus he sailed away from Asia, leaving behind a great yearning for him among the Greeks there.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Plutarch, Life of Lycurgus ch. 18: "Whether a boy's standing was good or bad, his lover shared it. There is a story that once when a boy had let slip a despicable cry in the course of a fight, it was his lover whom the Ephors fined. Sexual relations(sic) of this type were so highly valued that respectable women would in fact have love affairs(sic) with unmarried girls. Yet there was no rivalry; instead, if individual males found that their affections had the same object, they made this the foundation for mutual friendship, and eagerly pursued their joint efforts to perfect their loved one's character...."

    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 2 [Moralia 236F]:
    "A thing that met with especial approval among them was their so-called black broth [zomos], so much that the older men did not require a bit of meat, but gave up all of it to the young men. It is said that Dionysius, the tyrant of Sicily, for the sake of this bought a slave who had been a Spartan cook, and ordered him to prepare the broth for him, sparing no expense. But when the king tasted it, he spat it out in disgust, whereupon the cook said, 'O King, it is necessary to have exercised in teh Spartan manner, and to have bathed in the Eurotas, in order to relish this broth."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 4 [237A]:
    "They learned to read and write for purely practical reasons; but all other forms of education they banned from the country, books and treatises being included in this quite as much as men. All their education was directed toward prompt obedience to authority, stout endurance of hardship, and victory or death in battle."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 6 [237B]:
    "The young men slept together, according to division [ile] and company [angele], upon pallets which they themselves brought together by breaking off by hand, without any implement, the tops of the reeds which grew on the banks of the Eurotas. In the winter they put beneath their pallets, and intermingled with them, the plant called lykophron, since the material is reputed to possess some warming qualities."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 12 [237E]:
    "The boys steal whatever they can of their food, learning to make their raids adroitly upon people who are asleep or are careless in watching. The penalty for getting caught is a beating and no food. For the dinner allowed them is meager, so that, through coping with want by their own initiative, they may be compelled to be daring and unscrupulous."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 13 [237E-F]:
    "This was the object of the starvation diet. It was meager both for the reasons given and purposely that the youth should never become accustomed to being sated, but to being able to go without food; for in this way, the Spartans thought, the youth would be more serviceable in war if they were able to carry on without food, and they would be more self-controlled and more frugal if they lived a very considerable time at small expense. And to put up with the plainest diet, so as to be able to consume anything that came to hand, they thought made the youths' bodies more healthy owing to the scanty food, and they believed that this practice caused the bodies, repressed in any impulse towards thickness and breadth, to grow tall, and also to make them handsome; for a spare and lean condition they felt served to produce suppleness, while an overfed condition, because of too much weight, was against it."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 30 [239A]:
    "They used to make the Helots drunk and exhibit them to the young as a deterrent from excessive drinking."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 33 [239B]:
    "They did not attend either comedy or tragedy, so that they might not hear anyone speak either in earnest or in jest against the laws."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, The Ancient Customs of the Spartans 41 [239D-E]:
    " ... it was not permitted them to take up any menial trade at all; and there was no need whatever of making money, which involves a toilsome accumulation, nor of busy activity, because of [Lycurgus'] having made wealth wholly unenvied and unhonored. The Helots tilled the soil for them, paying a return which was regularly settled in advance. There was a ban against letting for a higher price, so that the Helots might make some profit, and thus be glad to do the work for their masters, and so that the masters might not look for any larger return."



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Plutarch, Sayings of Kings and Commanders [Moralia191F]:
    "When Paedaretus was not chosen to be one of the Three Hundred, an honor which ranked highest in the State, he departed cheerful and smiling, with the remark that the was glad if the State possessed three hundred citizens who were better than himself."

    There is more stuff there about the true nature of the Spartan state:
    http://www.csun.edu/%7Ehcfll004/sparta.html
    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/7849/
    Last edited by Alkman; Wednesday, October 6th, 2004 at 03:27 PM.

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    Account Inactive sonofsparta's Avatar
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    Yes it is a fact National Socialism was heavily based on the concepts of ancient Sparta.

    According to Wikipedia(last time i read it, that is) Hitler viewed Sparta as the original "Volkisch" state.

    And i think the Spartan-homosexuality thing is a myth.

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    Sparta was one of the most civilized societies in the world. Most of Asia Minor was Spartan colonies and they had colonies in southern Italy , throughout the Greek world. In fact it is this very reason that Alexander the Great, the Macedonian, allied himself with the Greeks in his conquest of Persia. Macedonia and the Spartans , as well other Greek city states wanted to push the Persian farther east and out of there cities. It is a mistake to think of Sparta as a savage warrior city with slave labor and it's citizen soldiers abusing innocent slaves.
    Every city state had slaves and in most regions if a person was wonder in the woods they ran a risk of being captured by bands of slaves traders.
    There was no industry and every citizen was needed in the defense of the city. A city was a center of civilization not merely an armed camp.
    Sparta has been mis-represented by the modern days idealist such as communist , democrats and the like.
    Sparta was an orderly family with captives doing work in the fields as they would have in many cases been armed murders of Spartans or slaves to other cities who wanted Spartan land. It was simply a warriors world not for the weak or meek.

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