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Thread: Sparta, the First National Socialist State

  1. #51
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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Moody; When it comes to 'understanding', I prefer to go with the facts rather than with opinion;
    To which you contradict yourself; because you rely on Nietzsche's opinion of Christianity as "understanding".

    "Nietzsche was born and raised in a deeply religious family.
    Irrelevant.

    His father was a pastor, his mother was the daughter of a pastor, both his grandparents were pastors [one of whom he often spent his school vacations with].
    Irrelevant again. Being the son of a pastor an expert on Christianity it does not one make. There are good pastors and there are bad quality pastors.

    Hence Nietzsche's childhood and youth were very pious and Christian.
    Hence relying on another's opinions of his childhood, yet at the same time denying ones opinions as factor.

    Pushkin also claims that the Christian Church "bans" mixed-race marriages - proof please.
    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=6982
    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=9157

    Pushkin rejects Eugenics on Christian grounds [he doesn't actually say why Christians are against Eugenics though].
    I have stated why Christians oppose eugenics; eugenics is based on materialist assumptions of race while Christianity is based on spiritual assumption of race.

    Clearly, Christianity and Eugenics are incompatible,
    This is why Nietzschean philosophy is closer to National Socialism AND Lacedaemonism.
    even you have admitted there was a Christian element in National Socialism. Thank you for contradicting yourself.
    Last edited by Moody; Monday, March 29th, 2004 at 03:53 PM. Reason: removed unnecessary abuse

  2. #52
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Pushkin; "To which you contradict yourself; because you rely on Nietzsche's opinion of Christianity as "understanding".

    Moody; Not so, I quoted factual evidence of Nietzsche's EXTREMELY pious up-bringing, his youthful and INTENSE adherence to Christianity, and the fact that his best subject at school was religion and that he went on to study Theology at University.
    Facts, not opinion.

    Pushkin; "I have stated why Christians oppose eugenics; eugenics is based on materialist assumptions of race while Christianity is based on spiritual assumption of race".

    Moody; That race is a biological difference [as well as a cultural/spiritual difference] is not a "materialist assumption", but a fact.
    Denying that race is a biological fact is a central tenet of anti-racism.
    The fact is that the Christian Churches, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, are anti-racist. You have provided no evidence to the contrary - not surprising if you are of the opinion that race isn't biological.

    Pushkin; "even you have admitted there was a Christian element in National Socialism. Thank you for contradicting yourself".

    Moody; I have always said that N-S was a synthesis; Christianity was the antithesis within it which was in the process of being transformed/eliminated even during the war years. I would say that in the Modern era the Christian antithesis in N-S has now been completely eliminated or else transformed.
    N-S now presents its own Spirituality which owes far more to Aryan paganism than it does to Christianity. This is not to deny that Christianity was an element; of course it was, just as socialism was. But these things have now been totally transmogrified.
    As for 'contradiction', see my thread 'Contradiction's Quest';

    www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7047
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, April 13th, 2004 at 06:55 PM. Reason: added link
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  3. #53
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    Mad Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Once again, Moody Lawless resorts to shameless straw man arguments.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Pushkin; "To which you contradict yourself; because you rely on Nietzsche's opinion of Christianity as "understanding".

    Moody; Not so, I quoted factual evidence of Nietzsche's EXTREMELY pious up-bringing, his youthful and INTENSE adherence to Christianity, and the fact that his best subject at school was religion and that he went on to study Theology at University.
    Facts, not opinion.
    Which still does not prove he had an understanding of Christianity. Indeed I find most ways people try to prove piety and such as ridiculious.

    Moody; That race is a biological difference [as well as a cultural/spiritual difference] is not a "materialist assumption", but a fact.
    Denying that race is a biological fact is a central tenet of anti-racism.
    Nice straw man Moody! This must really be a bad habit of yours. Please point to me to where I denied the existance of actual races or denied race as a biological category. Please provide the quote!


    The fact is that the Christian Churches, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, are anti-racist. You have provided no evidence to the contrary - not surprising if you are of the opinion that race isn't biological.
    How about you actually look at the links I provided within this own forum showing that Christianity does indeed admit the existance of distinct races, and their existance is part of God's plans for humanity!
    Last edited by Moody; Monday, March 29th, 2004 at 05:15 PM. Reason: removing unnecessary abuse

  4. #54
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Pushkin; "Once again, Moody Lawless resorts to shameless straw man arguments".

    Moody; I would hardly call the provable fact that Nietzsche was from a long line of clergy on BOTH sides of his family, who lived in a pious home enviroment, as well as the fact that religion was his best subject at school and that he opted for Theology at university - all that combined with the observation that he could quote long Biblical passages from memory, - a "straw man"!

    Pushkin; "Which still does not prove he had an understanding of Christianity. Indeed I find most ways people try to prove piety and such as ridiculious".

    Moody; The evidence is there - I can't make you believe it.

    Pushkin; "Please point to me to where I denied the existance of actual races or denied race as a biological category. Please provide the quote!"

    Moody; Look at the progress of this thread; you got to the point where you said above that Christianity denies the materiality of race.
    Your reasoning was thus; Eugenics = materialist assumption of race; ergo, Christianity rejects Eugenics.
    As always, take responsibility for the implications of the things you say and claim!

    Pushkin; "How about you actually look at the links I provided within this own forum showing that Christianity does indeed admit the existance of distinct races, and their existance is part of God's plans for humanity!"

    Moody; Who has said that isn't so?
    My statement has been from the beginning that Christianity rejects EUGENICS. You have said that Christianity rejects Race as a materialist assumption - that was your own statement.
    I am also saying that the Christian Churches as we know them are anti-racist.
    Nothing you have said or 'provided' has disabused this view which is proved every day by experience.
    And what is "God's plan"?
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  5. #55
    Account Inactive Hellenic Eagle's Avatar
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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryPotato
    I don't think fudge packing & man-boy love is part of the Germanic spirit.

    If my history is incorrect please feel free to correct me.
    The Spartan citizens were a minority in their nation and the slave class was the majority. Slaves were frequently murdered in order to keep this majority in order. Who would the Germans keep as slaves? Poles? Spartans were definitely bad ass warriors, but I wouldn't want to base my country on some ancient city-state that had bad food, open buttlove, and a majority of slaves.
    Hello Mr Potato cowboy,

    maybe in Connecticut USA you like to connect Ancient Sparta with homosexuality, propably cause you are so "free" and experimenting and maybe because you also like sleeping with your cowboy buddies, but that is not how things are.

    I am sorry to break these news to you, but unfortunately, it is a good commercial trick to present things in a decadent and obscene way, in order to surprise, make people curious and thus sell more books movies, etc.

    You speak as if, Spartans were dying to be connected with the Germanic spirit! Let me tell you one difference between Sparta and Nazi Germany: Spartans always fought bravely and without regard for their own life. Germans on the other hand were fully equiped and attacked much LESSER enemies who had not a chance of seriously resisting them. Thus the Germans could not hold on when some real military forces opposed them.

    I did not spend my valuable time to read all the tiring elaborations in this thread, however I must say that Moody Lawless has gotten closest to the thing that all the rest of you. Pushkin, what the hell? Sparta vanished cause of Eugenics? Stop going to the Church for a while, its bad for your mental health. If any of you wants to reasearch the end of Sparta try reading about the Pelloponesian war, but im afraid in advance that your sources will be mostly nonsense.
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, April 13th, 2004 at 06:58 PM. Reason: removed unnecessary abuse

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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Originally posted by Odin of Ossetia

    That still does not change the fact that homosexuality was rampant in the NSDAP, SA, and SS, or the organizations on which the Third Reich had its foundations. A very little known and very often ignored fact about the history of Nazi Germany.
    I find this type of assertion highly questionable. If there were substantial historical evidence of this, then authors of such books as "The Pink Swastika" would have no need to rely upon innuendo, illogical leaps, guilt by association, conjecture and other questionable devices to advance their case.

    Originally posted by Siegfried Augustus

    I find the homosexual disorder quite interesting from a psychological point of view. According to Desmond Morris it is caused by the unnatural living conditions in urban settings; animals in zoos also become homosexual occassionally. The city is a 'human zoo', according to Morris.
    Interesting. I find this probable. I must read up on some more Desmond Morris.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Eagle
    I am sorry to break these news to you, but unfortunately, it is a good commercial trick to present things in a decadent and obscene way, in order to surprise, make people curious and thus sell more books movies, etc. It seems you speak such crap, as you have learned about Ancient Sparta and Greek history, through reading other crap.
    Sort of like you and Germany.

    On the topic of Greece; I agree with you 100%, Hellenic Eagle; the rest of the Western world has turned a blind-eye towards the accurate portrayal of Greek history. There is no incontrofutible evidence that bisexuality was rampant in Ancient Greece; it would also prove extremely difficult to find true, non-slanderous evidence of widespread bisexuality in any part of the world at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Eagle
    You speak as if, Spartans were dying to be connected with the Germanic spirit! Let me tell you one difference between Sparta and Nazi Germany: Spartans always fought bravely and without regard for their own life. Germans on the other hand were fully equiped and attacked much LESSER enemies who had not a chance of seriously resisting them. Thus the Germans could not hold on when some real military forces opposed them.
    What you say about German strategic impotence, is as culturally libelous as insinuating the Spartans were bisexual. As most people know, Germany was not well armed nor were they adequately supplied to handle any prolonged conflict on two fronts.

    The Germans defeated the Belgians, British, Dutch, and the French in 1940; and the ONLY reason the Western Front fell in 1944 was US participation, especially D-Day. I'd like to see ANY nation defeat the US in the West AND the Soviets in the East.


    Last edited by Fraxinus Excelsior; Tuesday, March 30th, 2004 at 05:20 AM.

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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Interesting. I find this probable. I must read up on some more Desmond Morris.
    I found The Human Zoo quite an enlightening book. He doesn't really delve into homosexuality though; it is but briefly mentioned.

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    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried Augustus
    I found The Human Zoo quite an enlightening book. He doesn't really delve into homosexuality though; it is but briefly mentioned.
    Thanks for the recommendation - I will check that book out. I've seen some TV series he made about The Human Animal - very interseting look at people.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Account Inactive Hellenic Eagle's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by magilla gorilla
    Sort of like you and Germany.
    Yes, may be so manilla gorilla, it is possible that most of what i ve read and heard about Germany and German history do come from crap sources, BUT I DID NOT COME OUT AND STATE THAT GERMAN SOLDIERS WERE FAGGOTS, although this story also exists, as well as that Hitler was gay, etc.., get it gorilla?

    So it is just a matter of simple RESPECT.


    What you say about German strategic impotence, is as culturally libelous as insinuating the Spartans were bisexual. As most people know, Germany was not well armed nor were they adequately supplied to handle any prolonged conflict on two fronts.

    The Germans defeated the Belgians, British, Dutch, and the French in 1940; and the ONLY reason the Western Front fell in 1944 was US participation, especially D-Day. I'd like to see ANY nation defeat the US in the West AND the Soviets in the East

    Germany was very well armed, possesing weapons of superior technology never before seen. Germany was almost overly and very well supplied as preparations for war was what the country was focused on for many years. I am not a fool gorilla, i do know that much.

    Concerning US intervention and the Soviet front, well, this finale was just the result of an incredibly stupid lack of strategy, or to use a Greek word, an extremely stupid and hopeless worldwide aggressive strategy, a pure result of megalomania.

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