Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 78

Thread: Sparta, the First National Socialist State

  1. #31
    Senior Member Scoob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Last Online
    Friday, April 1st, 2005 @ 10:39 AM
    Subrace
    Europid
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Location
    Inside the Box
    Gender
    Politics
    Posthuman
    Posts
    836
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by blut-ehre
    *gasp* then maybe you'd like to explain to me the clear meaning of what you're trying to say ?
    Sigh... let me try.

    To posit something is to propose it. It's to do a definite act, or make a statement. If I say "let's go swimming", that's positive.

    To negate something is to cancel it. If I say "no, let's not go swimming" - that's a negative act.

    Get it?
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

  2. #32
    Senior Member blut-ehre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Last Online
    Sunday, February 15th, 2009 @ 09:05 PM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Subrace
    Mediterranid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    Location
    Nor-California
    Gender
    Age
    30
    Occupation
    schülerin
    Politics
    Radikal NS & Eugenics
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Posts
    133
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    Sigh... let me try.

    To posit something is to propose it. It's to do a definite act, or make a statement. If I say "let's go swimming", that's positive.

    To negate something is to cancel it. If I say "no, let's not go swimming" - that's a negative act.

    Get it?
    yeah i get it , i have gotten that part; to me it's part of the subject on a whole matter. generalizing it all... but go on about the rest ?

    'German boy, do not forget you are a German,' and, 'Little girl, remember you are to become a German mother.'

  3. #33
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Last Online
    Tuesday, July 10th, 2012 @ 10:18 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Albion
    Subrace
    Paleo-Atlantid
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    State
    Essex Essex
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Investigator of Souls
    Politics
    Pan-Germanic Nationalist
    Religion
    Runosophy
    Posts
    1,904
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9
    Thanked in
    9 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Pushkin; "First off Moody, there was more to Sparta than just eugenics. In fact you speak as if thats the main aspect of Spartanism. It is not".

    Moody; Never said it was, so you have just made a straw-man argument.
    It was YOU who first mentioned Eugenics as something that you particularly disliked about the Spartan ethos!
    Since you made that statement I responded to it, and asked if your objections to Eugenics were Christian-moral; you said that they were.
    Therefore I had to point out that your pretence to a "Christian-Sparta" was shattered by your own objection to Eugenics, an important feature of the Spartan ethos which YOU had singled out for censure.

    Pushkin; "I'm talking about their military prowess and virtues. Indeed the Christian apologist Origen talked about the compatibility of the sacrifice of King Lenoidas to Christian virtue. He even said Lenoidas died for Sparta as Christ died for his people".

    Moody; And the Spartan's had that prowess because they practised Eugenics.
    So therefore Eugenics cannot be separated from a full-on military ethos, whether it be the Spartans or the SS.

    Pushkin; "Please point to me where I have said the Normans were not Vikings".

    Moody; You spoke of "recent criticism" which supposedly "refutes" the "Normanist theory". Since [as usual] you did not back up your assertion, I could only assume that you were referring to recent theories on the Normans/Vikings etc., which I touched on.
    This was a response you had made to my orignal assertion that the Normans involved in the Crusades were relying on their Viking instincts, rather than their Christian ones. You tried to pour cold water on this by your vague reference to 'recent refutation of Normanist theory'.
    Obviously that reference of yours was false and misplaced, and now you scream and use bad language pretending that you didn't make such an objection.

    Pushkin; "I believe the most I've denied is that the Rus(or the majority of them) were Vikings".

    Moody; The contemporary medieval eye-witness Travel Report of Fadlan describes the Rus as Vikings.

    Pushkin; "Protestants are not exactly the best source for Christian theology".

    Moody; An example of sectarian prejudice on your part; I think Luther and Calvin are just two examples to refute your claim.

    Pushkin; "Nietzsche was a pure nutcase, as his own doctor admitted".

    Moody; Nietzsche had a mental breakdown in 1889 as all are aware; however, prior to that point he produced philosophy of the highest standard and he is considered by Philosophers to be one of the greatest philosophers of the 19th century [and beyond].
    Your own abuse of him is devoid of argument as usual.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  4. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, August 20th, 2009 @ 01:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Subrace
    Uralic/Alpine/Pontid mixed
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Posts
    3,309
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Moody; And the Spartan's had that prowess because they practised Eugenics.
    No, thats why their society eventually fell. They killed off so many of themselves, their population decreased. Ironically they were defeated by societies that did not practice eugenics.

    So therefore Eugenics cannot be separated from a full-on military ethos
    *sigh* I've already given examples of military societies that did not practice eugenics. The Swiss today have a full-on military ethos and they don't practice eugenics.

    Moody; An example of sectarian prejudice on your part; I think Luther and Calvin are just two examples to refute your claim.
    By all means please try to use Luther and Calvin(whose theology was a major throwback to Judaism) to refute my claims!

    "Nietzsche fought Christianity passionately because he looked only at degenerate and outward Christians; as for the Christian religion, he never began to try to understand it."
    --Nikolai Berdyaev

  5. #35
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Last Online
    Tuesday, July 10th, 2012 @ 10:18 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Albion
    Subrace
    Paleo-Atlantid
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    State
    Essex Essex
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Investigator of Souls
    Politics
    Pan-Germanic Nationalist
    Religion
    Runosophy
    Posts
    1,904
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9
    Thanked in
    9 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Pushkin; "No, thats why their society eventually fell. They killed off so many of themselves, their population decreased. Ironically they were defeated by societies that did not practice eugenics".

    Moody; You've gone from saying that Eugenics was not the most important feature of Sparta to actually blaming Eugenics for Sparta's downfall!
    Eugenics is about QUALITY not quantity.

    Pushkin; "I've already given examples of military societies that did not practice eugenics. The Swiss today have a full-on military ethos and they don't practice eugenics".

    Moody; Irrelevant; we are all aware that most societies do not practice Eugenics; the fact that the Spartans DID is what makes them remarkable. And it is your own OBJECTION to Eugenics that makes your idea of a 'Christian Sparta' nonsensical.
    What did Orson Welles say about the Swiss and the cuckoo clock?

    Pushkin; "By all means please try to use Luther and Calvin (whose theology was a major throwback to Judaism) to refute my claims!"

    Moody; As neither a Protestant or a Catholic I can recognise that Luther and Calvin have made major contributions to Christian theology; no argument needed.

    Pushkin; "Nietzsche fought Christianity passionately because he looked only at degenerate and outward Christians; as for the Christian religion, he never began to try to understand it."[Nikolai Berdyaev]

    Moody; As I have already had to point out to you and Berdyaev, Nietzsche was the son of a Pastor, and was brought up in a very devout household; he knew Christianity inside-out because he lived through it.
    What Christians aren't degenerate?
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  6. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, August 20th, 2009 @ 01:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Subrace
    Uralic/Alpine/Pontid mixed
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Posts
    3,309
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Moody; You've gone from saying that Eugenics was not the most important feature of Sparta to actually blaming Eugenics for Sparta's downfall!
    Yes, eugenics was not the most important aspect of Spartan society. And as Paul Cartledge in his book on the Spartans explains, it was both Spartan values and its stability and order that made it so admired among the Greeks and famous men like Machiavelli, More, and Rousseau.

    And yes, Sparta's collasping birthrate; which was made worse by its eugenics practices; contributed greatly to its decline and downfall.

    Moody; Irrelevant; we are all aware that most societies do not practice Eugenics; the fact that the Spartans DID is what makes them remarkable.
    Really? Thats not what Chester G. Starr in his "the Ancient Greeks" saids. He explains that what made the Spartan system(or "Lycurgan system" as he puts it) unique among the Greeks was it gave heavy emphasis on service to state and the military virtues of physical prowess, courage, and discipline; more so than in other Greek city-states.

    And it is your own OBJECTION to Eugenics that makes your idea of a 'Christian Sparta' nonsensical.
    Nevermind that Thomas More based his "Utopia" on Sparta and again as I repeat, much of Sparta's great admirers in history admired it for its political stability and virtues; not its eugenics. Indeed, the most famous admirers of Sparta never mentioned its eugenic practices at all as something to be admired. So again, you knowledge of history is lacking here!

    Moody; As I have already had to point out to you and Berdyaev,
    To me and Berdyaev? Berdyaev has been dead for 50 years!

    Nietzsche was the son of a Pastor, and was brought up in a very devout household; he knew Christianity inside-out because he lived through it.
    As I and Berdyaev have said again, Nietzsche experianced a perverted form of Christianity and took that as true Christianity. He never made any attempts to fully understand it.

    What Christians aren't degenerate?
    Nice straw man. Christian theology has never upheld the view that Christians are perfect; they're subject to orginal sin as anybody else.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Last Online
    Tuesday, July 10th, 2012 @ 10:18 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Albion
    Subrace
    Paleo-Atlantid
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    State
    Essex Essex
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Investigator of Souls
    Politics
    Pan-Germanic Nationalist
    Religion
    Runosophy
    Posts
    1,904
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9
    Thanked in
    9 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    It's always important to bear in mind the actual SUBJECT of a thread when we post replies.
    This thread is about 'Nazi Germany AND Sparta' - that's why it is in this N-S subforum. So it is looking at the connections between the two, and of course the most important connection is that of Eugenics.
    Now the first to mention Eugenics in this thread explicitly was Pushkin [post #7]. He called Eugenics "brutal" and agreed that he objected to Eugenics for "Christian" reasons.
    But he would not elaborate on that, which is a shame for his statement has many implications. Christianity would be against not only the Eugenics of the Spartans, but also against the Eugenics of National Socialism!
    Here he makes explicit the suspicion long held that Christianity is ultimately incompatible with Racial Politics [which has its roots in Sparta and N-S].
    While the Eugenicist selects on the principles of quality of Race, the Christian hymns "O Come All Ye Faithful" and is willing to take any comers.
    A religion of "conversion" is non-discriminatory and not elitist and selective.
    Christianity today leads the mixed-race agenda.
    Now let us look at what else Pushkin has to say;

    Pushkin; "Yes, eugenics was not the most important aspect of Spartan society. And as Paul Cartledge in his book on the Spartans explains, it was both Spartan values and its stability and order that made it so admired among the Greeks and famous men like Machiavelli, More, and Rousseau".

    Moody; I'm surprised that he didn't mention the influence of Sparta on Plato's 'Republic'. This model of the totalitarian State was very popular amongst National Socialists.
    As for More/Rousseau/Machiavelli, we are talking in this thread about Sparta and "Nazi Germany", not about Sparta and the Renaissance, or Sparta and the 18th century.
    In terms of RELEVANCE to the thread, Eugenics IS important.
    See the award-winning essay by Allen G. Roper on 'Ancient Eugenics' for a non-politically correct analysis.

    Pushkin; "And yes, Sparta's collasping birthrate; which was made worse by its eugenics practices; contributed greatly to its decline and downfall".

    Moody; Roger Pearson M.S. [another politically-incorrect author] says different in his 'Early Civilisations of the Nordic Peoples';
    "It was the change in philosophy that destroyed Sparta, for the old national and community idea passed away, and instead emphasis on individualism caused the old laws to be repealed. Spartan freedom became license, and, as often happened, Nordic decay was heralded-in by ideas of 'enlightenment' and 'individualism' .... In Sparta, as in Athens, the decline of the state is marked by the decline in Nordic blood".
    [ib.,]

    Pushkin; "Really? Thats not what Chester G. Starr in his "the Ancient Greeks" saids. He explains that what made the Spartan system(or "Lycurgan system" as he puts it) unique among the Greeks was it gave heavy emphasis on service to state and the military virtues of physical prowess, courage, and discipline; more so than in other Greek city-states".

    Moody; Clearly this is a race-related issue; what the mixed-race Persian armies had was sheer numbers. What the Spartans had was a smaller elite of excellent racial specimens who exhibited those martial qualities described.
    The inner SS also had these qualities; unfortunately, the mass always outnumbers the elite.

    Pushkin; "Nevermind that Thomas More based his "Utopia" on Sparta and again as I repeat, much of Sparta's great admirers in history admired it for its political stability and virtues; not its eugenics. Indeed, the most famous admirers of Sparta never mentioned its eugenic practices at all as something to be admired. So again, you knowledge of history is lacking here!"

    Moody; My knowledge is NOT lacking. Rather I adressed myself to the ACTUAL SUBJECT of this thread which is the relation of Sparta to N-S.
    Learn to be RELEVANT.

    Pushkin; "To me and Berdyaev? Berdyaev has been dead for 50 years!"

    Moody; You miss the irony there - you must be an American.
    Berdyaev was someone who flit between Marxism and Christianity his whole life - he is hardly an authority on Nietzsche.

    Pushkin; "As I and Berdyaev have said again, Nietzsche experianced a perverted form of Christianity and took that as true Christianity. He never made any attempts to fully understand it".

    Moody; Berdyaev is entitled to his opinion, although he hardly features as a Nietzsche scholar.
    The very notion that there is a "true Christianity" is rather absurd.
    As Nietzsche said, 'there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross'.

    Pushkin; " Christian theology has never upheld the view that Christians are perfect; they're subject to orginal sin as anybody else".

    Moody; 'Original sin' is a typically guilt-ridden Christian concept which is rejected by Classicism. Indeed, the Spartans had no notion of it, and Spartan boys were taught to lie and to steal.
    But then you'd object to that just as you object to Eugenics!
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  8. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, August 20th, 2009 @ 01:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Subrace
    Uralic/Alpine/Pontid mixed
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Posts
    3,309
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    It's always important to bear in mind the actual SUBJECT of a thread when we post replies. This thread is about 'Nazi Germany AND Sparta' - that's why it is in this N-S subforum. So it is looking at the connections between the two, and of course the most important connection is that of Eugenics.
    Yes and who started this whole mess and drifting the thread? If we look through the thread's history, it's you Moody. I made a very simple statement of my admiration for Sparta except for their eugenics practices.
    I chose not to elaborate because I did want to drift the thread and such. Also knowing the different paradigms from which a Christian approaches eugenics is different from from somebody who supports it does, I really was not in the mood to deal with such.

    The Christianity I adhere to does not support eugenics.
    God created distinct races and nations and they play an important role in God's plans for humanity.
    Here lies the difference between your position and mine. You think virtues is simply an extension of race, hence what made the Spartans excellent was their racial purity. I on the other hand declare that race and racial purity can only go so far, a race needs morals and virtues as guidance in order to achieve anything great. What made the Spartans great was the fact their society placed strong emphasis on martial prowess, more so than other Greek city-states.
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, April 13th, 2004 at 07:42 PM. Reason: removing unnecessary abuse/rehashing

  9. #39
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Last Online
    Tuesday, July 10th, 2012 @ 10:18 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Albion
    Subrace
    Paleo-Atlantid
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    State
    Essex Essex
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Investigator of Souls
    Politics
    Pan-Germanic Nationalist
    Religion
    Runosophy
    Posts
    1,904
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    9
    Thanked in
    9 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    You have not really addressed the main issue as far as your OWN perspective is concerned; why do you reject Eugenics [the nexus between Sparta and National Socialism]?

    Rather then just say it is for 'Christian' reasons, why not actually put up a decent argument?
    Otherwise, those of us who are not convinced by the "Pale Galilean" will conclude that you have no argument and can only respond with ad hominems.
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, April 13th, 2004 at 07:47 PM. Reason: removed responses to abuse
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  10. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, August 20th, 2009 @ 01:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Subrace
    Uralic/Alpine/Pontid mixed
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Posts
    3,309
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Nazi Germany & Spartan Greece

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    You have not really addressed the main issue as far as your OWN perspective is concerned; why do you reject Eugenics [the nexus between Sparta and National Socialism]?
    I adhere to the traditional Christian viewpoint on eugenics.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/16038b.htm

    The root difference between Catholic teaching and that of modern eugenics is that the one places the final end of man in eternal life, whilst the other places it in civic worth. The effectual difference is that the Church makes bodily and mental culture subservient to morality, whilst modern eugenics makes morality subservient to bodily and mental culture. But we must admit that modern eugenics shows a growing tendency to acknowledge the claims of religion. Dr. Saleeby is an advance on Galton, and Professor Whetham is an advance on Saleeby. In dealing with racial poisons, the Church provides the most radical remedies. Against alcohol she sets the virtue of temperance, against white-lead the virtue of justice, against venereal disease the virtue of purity. She provides for proper selection in marriage by setting impediments against unworthy marriages. The spirit life of the married pair and of the children is protected by the prohibition of mixed marriages. The proclamation of banns protects the parties against possible fraud or mistake. The requirement of consent of parents tends to promote prudent marriages. The impediment of a previous engagement unreleased is a safeguard against rash promises and heartless breach of promise. The impediments of consanguinity and affinity are universally acknowledged to have a great eugenic value. Moreover, since the most necessary and most difficult eugenic reforms consist in the control of the sex appetite, the practice of celibacy is an important factor in race culture. It is the standing example of a Divinely aided will holding the sensual passion in check.

Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The New National Socialist Party
    By Caledonian in forum Parties, Organizations, & Activism
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 01:24 AM
  2. National Socialist Toys!
    By frippardthree in forum Parenthood & Family
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Wednesday, February 24th, 2010, 08:08 AM
  3. National AND Socialist?
    By ogenoct in forum Political Theory
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: Friday, August 5th, 2005, 06:51 AM
  4. While A National Socialist Travels...
    By Aristotle in forum The Hearth
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: Monday, October 4th, 2004, 12:13 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •