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Thread: What Did the Picts Look Like?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Cythraul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkbeard View Post
    And the dark beard? I've read of Celts dying hair blonde, but not dark. So I'd be inclined to say that the beard rather than the hair represents true colouring. EDIT: Actually the eyebrow is probably the most definitive factor. I've never heard of eyebrow-dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by forkbeard View Post
    And who's to say these don't depict Atlantids/Atlanto-Meds? I'm not sure this morphology and presence of facial hair is exclusive to Nordids.

    Quote Originally Posted by forkbeard View Post

    Interesting maps, but I really don't think they tell us much about how the Picts looked. By 1899, we had essentially the same genetic makeup in Britain as we do now. Naturally some intermixture has occured, but even 50%+ 'fair' people in Scotland in 1899 does not implicate that at one time it was 100% 'fair'. As for why Scotland might have been 'fairer', logistics may have made tribal/communal mixing a slower process than down here in England - thus Germanic communities were relatively more isolated from Celtic communities. Just an idea.
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    Gregor Mendel discovered the law of segregation of characteristics.

    In a stable genepool and population the genes will stabilise at a ratio of 9:3:3:1. :assuming random assortive mating.
    If we apply this proportionality to the inheritance of mammalian hair colour/ coat colour in Germanics on a colour scale from dominant to recessive from black- dark brown-light brown- blonde- red-. We can compare the predicted percentages within a closed gene pool.
    The predicted percentages are 57.75%, 18.75%, 18.75%, 6.25%.
    These percentages tally very closely with the artistic coloration of say the Etruscans in their art or the inherited coat color of Iceland ponies.

    If 4% of the population in Britain is now red haired we can say the correct proportion should be 6.25% red haired, 18.75% should be blonde, 18.75% having light brown hair and 57% having dark brown hair. from this equation we can see actual jet black hair is an alien intrusive gene.

    In Sweden at least 40% were blonde meaning this was the dominant genotype and should have been 57.75%. Therefore 18.75% should have been red haired, with presumably the other 18.75% being an even more recessive gene, baby blonde?, albino?. It is clear then that black/ dark brown hair is utterly alien to the Germanic brood land of Sweden.
    Ibn Fadlan states so.
    The prehistoric Germans entering back into central Europe would have carried this "Swedish" genetic proportion back into Germania and as far as Greece during the Dorian migration. It has died out in Greece just as water dries up in the desert.
    The prediction for a Pictish Scotland as a "Reddish haired" population even if Reddish meant dark brown would still include 18.75% blonde and 18.75% light brown.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by forkbeard View Post
    Representations of Picts.
    This is the Rhynie man boulder in the foyer to Aberdeen council offices. It may be a mythological figure (wielding an axe could make it a weather deity). Or it could be a chieftain. Perhaps it was a territorial warning sign.

    These are representations of Picts in the book of Kells.


    These are representations of picts on the Pictish stones.


    This map indicates at least in 1899 that the Scots as a whole were fairer than most parts of Britain.

    The skeletal weight map shows them in the top end of physical build also.
    I don't quite understand the first map. Does "blue/gray eyes with light brown/red hair" refer to the percentage of individuals in the population who have that colour combination?

    I'm not sure how well it corresponds to "fairness" as a whole, really. For example Essex and Suffolk are in category 5, while Connaught in Ireland is in category 1. I'm sure there'd have to be more blonds, and fewer dark brown/black headed people in the former two than in the latter.

    Also my observation is certainly that there are more blonds among the English (at least in the more eastern areas) than among the Scots. I'm assuming then that the light brown/red hair grouping doesn't include blonds.

    But it's a bit hard to generalise about colouring.

    from this equation we can see actual jet black hair is an alien intrusive gene.
    I don't know how you could conclude that from equations.

    In any case, hair colouring is determined by many gene loci, it's not a case of "a black hair gene", "a light brown hair gene" etc. and the dominance/recessiveness is also rather complicated.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    For example Essex and Suffolk are in category 5, while Connaught in Ireland is in category 1. I'm sure there'd have to be more blonds, and fewer dark brown/black headed people in the former two than in the latter.
    The first thing I thought of when I saw that Irish bit (and it's nowt short of INFURIATING that it's only on a Province basis, and not a County one), was of the Goidelic invasion a la O'Rahilly (Oswiu playing his broken record again...). Conn is an ancestor God of the Gaels (as opposed to the Laginians, Fir Bolg, Cruithne etc.), and a movement of the same from Tara westward can be seen in the name of the northwestern province. The geographical logic of the Tain Bo Cuailnge is much aided if we see the 'Connachta' there referring to Tara Gaels.

    Connaught is not the most hospitable of places, and so an incoming group could really have a powerful numeric effect over the (darker) natives (see the Sogain), effecting the average figures seen on the map.

    The fellow Goidelic Ui Neill's conquest of western Ulster might be likewise of import in that province's relative fairness.

    Munster's Gaels were apparently far more interested in mixing in with their Ernean predecessors, as reflected in their genealogies. And there's more nooks and crannies in that fat land for natives to survive in some number around the peripheries.

    This is just one hypothetical interpretation of the map, and Gods know how accurate or not it is!
    Also my observation is certainly that there are more blonds among the English (at least in the more eastern areas) than among the Scots. I'm assuming then that the light brown/red hair grouping doesn't include blonds.
    Most Scots you'll meet are from the central belt, yes? There are tons of people in Scotland who are more 'stay at home' and who you barely hear of in wider life. Like those of the southeast, who sound just like Northumbrians to me, and yet who are completely without a global or national voice or image or whatever. Perthshire seemed pretty fair to me, for instance.

    What are your experiences, with Scotch kin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    The first thing I thought of when I saw that Irish bit (and it's nowt short of INFURIATING that it's only on a Province basis, and not a County one), was of the Goidelic invasion a la O'Rahilly (Oswiu playing his broken record again...). Conn is an ancestor God of the Gaels (as opposed to the Laginians, Fir Bolg, Cruithne etc.), and a movement of the same from Tara westward can be seen in the name of the northwestern province. The geographical logic of the Tain Bo Cuailnge is much aided if we see the 'Connachta' there referring to Tara Gaels.

    Connaught is not the most hospitable of places, and so an incoming group could really have a powerful numeric effect over the (darker) natives (see the Sogain), effecting the average figures seen on the map.
    I thought I had read elsewhere though that the people of Connaught were more commonly dark than in other areas of the country. But I'm not sure, maybe I just assumed it.

    However I also would have thought that aboriginal inhabitants would be more likely to be less swamped by incomers in an inhospitable region, because the latter would tend to settle more thickly on the best land. Hard to know really, but all food for thought anyway.

    Either way, surely Connaught is darker than Essex and Suffolk, with their Borrebies and so forth, but like I said maybe it's just a case of those English counties having more blonds at the expense of light browns and reds. It also depends on definitions of the shades of brown, which is admittedly quite subjective; for example their "light brown" might be what I'd call "medium brown".

    Most Scots you'll meet are from the central belt, yes? There are tons of people in Scotland who are more 'stay at home' and who you barely hear of in wider life. Like those of the southeast, who sound just like Northumbrians to me, and yet who are completely without a global or national voice or image or whatever. Perthshire seemed pretty fair to me, for instance.

    What are your experiences, with Scotch kin?
    Particularly people of Scottish descent in Australia (they're especially common in my area), but being of Scottish descent myself, I've long been interested in that country, so I've seen many Scots (mainly photos, tv etc.) from, I think, various backgrounds and areas.
    I'm confident that blond hair is noticeably commoner in many parts of England than in Scotland, but other than that I'm not too sure how the two compare in hair colour; personal observations can be pretty subjective when it gets complicated.

    In order to get some common ground here, how would you describe the "fairness" of Perthshire? Is it a case of blonds being common there, or perhaps a relative lack of dark heads, or just that a particularly large proportion are light brown haired etc.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by forkbeard View Post
    Well Tacitus still says the Picts were Germanic with reddish hair. Why didn't he say the Picts were black haired and black eyed like Numidians (Of Algeria). Like lots of Aberdonians are today.
    My ex girlfriend didn't have a hook nose but I still think of her as a Romano Brit.
    She sounds like the Silurian type, they were there before the Romans came.
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    MacKay Warrior


    The Clan Mackay (Gaelic: Mac Aoidh) is an ancient and once powerful Scottish clan from the country's far north in the Scottish Highlands, but with roots in the old province of Moray. They played a powerful force in politics beginning in the 14th century, supporting Robert the Bruce. Mackays became famous for strength, courage and skill in soldiering and were involved in endless clan battles against Keiths, Rosses, Gunns, Sinclairs, Sutherlands and others, and wars abroad. In the centuries that followed they were very anti-Jacobite. They played an important role in the military activities of both Scotland and Europe. The Highland Clearances had dire ramifications for the clan, but since then they spread throughout the world and have provided it many famous and influential descendants.

    Robert Mackay


    The Mackays are believed to descend from the ancient tribes that existed in Scotland called the Picts. However the name is also found from ancient times in Holland where the Mackays became noted for their many branches in the region. Each house acquiring a status and influence that was envied by the princess of the region. The name Mackay is also found in Ireland from ancient times when several tribes from the northern area of Ireland, which was once part of one of the ancient Scottish kingdoms known as Dál Riata, moved across the sea to Scotland. The Mackays in Scotland were seated in Strathnaver north of Sutherland. Although the exact origin of the Clan Mackay is unknown it is generally accepted that they belonged to the early Celtic population of Scotland, although, from their proximity to the Norse immigrants, it is not at all improbable that latterly the two races became largely blended.

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    Senior Member Angelcynn Beorn's Avatar
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    Here's a few photos of drawings of Picts drawn by the Picts themselves:



    Some features that stand out to me are a prominent, sometimes Aquiline, nose. Heavy beard growth. They generally seem to be quite long limbed and slender. Heavy eyebrows, and thick, sometimes curly, dark hair.

    Generally going from these depictions alone i would say they resembled Atlanto-Mediterraneans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelcynn Beorn View Post
    Here's a few photos of drawings of Picts drawn by the Picts themselves:



    Some features that stand out to me are a prominent, sometimes Aquiline, nose. Heavy beard growth. They generally seem to be quite long limbed and slender. Heavy eyebrows, and thick, sometimes curly, dark hair.

    Generally going from these depictions alone i would say they resembled Atlanto-Mediterraneans.
    Your heading in the right direction. Although shorter limbs were more common since there maximum height was only 5'6. The skeletal remains show that there Neolithic ancestors were Pygmies, around 4 feet something. A good example would be the Pygmies of New Guinea. A small indigenous people, built for dense mountinous environments.

    The Picts were extremly agile with a maximum weight of 145 pounds. Slender is an understatment for there broad sholders could support a vary strong upper body. The mortality rate was so high that only the hardiest of people could servive. These adaptations would help them become skilled archers and spear throwers. The high inset of there feet allowed them to sprint and traverse thick brush with ease. This made them excellent Guerilla Fighters against the Romans.

    I think the Picts did have natural ghoatee like beards and curly dark hair as depicted in these rock carvings. You could say the same about there skin I guess. There physical appearance does remind me of Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

    I think that the Atlanto-Mediterraneans are a prehistoric Middle Eastern people. A lost people that crossed NW Africa to Spain. I'd say sometime during the last ice age.

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    I have read that they where short and dark headed painted themselves blue and or had tattoes.
    But I recently read a book by Sharon Turner and he stated the name Picts or pixies is what the Saxons called them and that they lived in holes in the ground,played trix on people what I mean by trix is that they stole from people.
    To me Nick Mason,in his younger years is what I invision a Pict to look like.

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