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Thread: Kretschmer and Sheldon's Typologies

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    Post Kretschmer and Sheldon's Typologies

    This is some of material which could be saved by Scoob after the crash, I will probably post more about this for me very interesting (hopefully for others too) theme. A body type test (probably for fun) after the scheme of Sheldon:

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker3.htm

    Further info in German:
    http://www.psychologie.uni-mannheim.de/psycho3/LehreWS0304/Ueb_Diff/Typologien.pdf

    More about Sheldon (Kretscher had a better concept imo):
    http://www.innerexplorations.com/psytext/the2.htm


    TYPES OF HUMOR: Agrippa

    Well, it always had been said that Nordids are primarily Leptosomic or Leptosome/Athletic and more of on the introverted/schizothym scala (schizothym is a normal psychological condition defined by Ernst Kretschmer first), which would mean again (if true) that they are not as extraverted and "openminded" like Zyklothyms. The funny thickset man is a cliche, but oftentimes its right and especially the kind of humor is oftentimes different. In the USA the extraverted type is more more popular than in old Europe (before 1945-60). I just have to think back how Clinton was seen by the most and the media and Nixon (typical schizothym) even before his catastrophy.


    SECOND POST:

    Well, as a (pseudo? ^^) Cineast I would explain it best in two films. The first more zyklothym humor can be seen in Pirates of the Caribbean, or all that "wedding and partnership comedies" and all those comedies in such a form. That doesnt mean that the other type cant find it interesting too, its just not funny for him. Its such an easy to understand, open-friendly sort of humor.
    People who can laugh about a pie in the face f.e. The second would be schizothym humor which would be best expressed in "black humor", more drastic, sometimes even brutal. From ironic to its extreme in cynicism.

    Just think about the film with Cameron Diaz "Very bad things" or films like that. Its the same thing the other way around, maybe they like it too, they just cant laugh about it. The main difference between this two psychological types is that the first gets the impression more directly and thinking comes 2nd - there is no strong filter for emotions at first, but as fast as they get upset, as soon they get calm again = zyklothym. The other must not be really calm, but there is a stronger filter, the "life inside" is more important for the perception of things than in the other type. There is usually the impression of person which is thinking first, or is usually not easy to upset, but if, then it can get really ugly.

    The internal structures ordain what is done more than the shorttime influences of the world from outside = schizothym. Typical honest fanatics are almost ALWAYS schizothym and most of the time Leptosomic too. Zyklothyms seldom are fanatic in anything (maybe just about things like gossiping and luxury) If they get one, than just in very extreme situations. They can be brutal too, but usually more in an emotional and not in a way in which their concepts lead to it. In the USA the more extraverted were always preferred before the more aristocratic and more mysterious people. Just think about what Caesar said: "Just let stout people be around me..." Why? Because they are easier to see through and are not fanatic enough to risk too much.

    Of course the liberal society especially on the low level and with its exxagerated rituals and dissembling friendliness and the "I love this I love that and its so great..." is the opposite of the schizothym temperemant, maybe best represented by the classic Prussian or English culture in the 19th century. Even in the USA the more schizothym type was for a long time a strong factor in the culture. Just think about the actors from the 30s to the 40s like Jimmy Stewart, Gregory Peck etc. and compare them with the "ordinary looking" and more primitive acting types of today.

    There is a change in culture and this is also present in the role models. Especially from the 70s on there was this chance to ordinary, not very disciplined, more rugged and simple thinking "heros" and away from more refined types.


    THIRD POST:

    Did you ever see how in Gothic, in the medieval age, a time if introspection and deep believe the people were portrayed? They represent almost all extreme Leptosomic types more of the Nordid branch. Another interesting thing, how is the devil and his demons and how are angels and god portrayed? At least usually? They are both with just few exceptions Leptosomic, and there is some truth in this. The Zyklothym type is often an extreme in its emotions, but seldom in his ideas or morality. He is easy to corrupt, but seldom really evil-minded. At least not if its about a long time concept.

    The Schizothym is again the opposite, he might be an angel with very strong believes and moral, or a devil without any scruple. The question of how the Schizothym type is if brutal and amoralic or fanatic in its morality is determined by environmental factors and certain personal traits which have not too much to do with the Zyklothym-Viskoes-Schizothym scheme. Whats really typical is that the inner structures determine the acting, the acting with the environment and not the other way around. So if there are structures established in the early childhood, its more difficult to impossible to change them again in Schizothym persons.

    They can be formed more than the more always environmental influenced Zyklothym type, but if they are stamped once a time, they dont go off the target too often. Kretschmer and other people made certain tests and there were interesting results which are still widely accepted although the "Konstitutionstypologie" is not very reputable nowadays for similar reasons like the racial categories..."categorizations of humans are evil" and the other reason was that Kretschmer was going too far.

    But now the results, its always the opposite for the Zyklothym like Schizothyms tend to look at the form first, than at the color.
    They tend to change their behaviour slow, but if it is changed they are usually more concentrated and faster than Zyklothyms. This was interesting in tests in which the probands should first find letters in a text or in lines of different letters. First they had to find f.e. A as fast as possible, then they had to find U. Zyklothyms are easier to deflect in situations as they are in their life.

    Anothering interesting phenomenon was that the Zyklothyms usually have very down-to-earth views, most of the time regardless of their intelligence level, but for Schizothyms its the opposite again. They have more often unusual conceptions, sometimes very intelligent views, sometimes very dumb views and thats more determined by intelligence and education. It seems they tend more to categorize and to have a strong worldview, no matter what is said in it, but they have one, they in fact need one. So they learn from their environment and use their intelligence to make one.

    That can be good if the information they get is good and their ingelligence high, but if they are dumb or get the wrong informations they can get to very dangerous individuals. Typical is that the most persons running amok are Schizothyms. Like I said, they have a high tolerance level, they dont overreact too often, but if they do, they really do... Kretscher said there is no big race related difference between Nordids and Alpines, but I can give you some pictures so you can decide by yourself. This pictures are made up of one population, just differed after the constitutional types. I think there is a Leptosomic tendency in Dinarids and Nordids which doesnt mean they must be all Schizothym or Leptosomic, there are just more of them and they are more extreme in their features.
    The opposite might be true for Alpines, although again, if there is a significant difference this difference is not huge and both variants can be found at least in most races.

    That problem with America and their modern culture and their obviously extraverted trends is not just monokausal to answer, there are many reasons for that as for all the trends of liberal US-society. For that I would much more time because every establishment is producing its role-model how they want the "ordinary man" look like and act. Thats rather complicated in US because of the free market and the people have to get what they want, but still there is some major influence of the establishment about what the "ordinary man" should be and think.

    I think we agree on that. They want easy going, plat thinking and everytime friendly individuals because they need it in the service society. If they get brutal, if its allowed for them to do so, just if they are personally attacked usually. And dont forget, your politicians and "leaders" are no one, they are mainly presentators, moderators in to-day "democracy". The real ruling class are business men and they look different from efficient managers, officers and aristocrats which are as always dominated by Leptosomics. Jews have a strong schizothym tendency, but I would say thats not the only reason for their poor moral. As I said, the young Schizothym is very mouldable, the adult almost not.

    I think culture must be considered as one of the major factors and of course to feel the physical inferiority can lead to compensation and extreme behavior toward people which tend to say physical appearance is important. They feel just personally attacked no matter if its about themselves or not, at least in their subconsciousness. BTW, an indicator for Schizothymie seems to be the level of Schiphrenic people which are the pathological extreme, as manic-depressive people are in Kretschmers theory the extreme of Zyklothyms. The highest levels I read in a psychological books can be found in the most Indoeuropean groups, the Northern Germanic region (Scandinavia) and the Nordindid one (higher castes even more). Well, maybe that was by chance or the author (a serious and well known psychologist) was wrong.


    THIRD POST:

    Originally Posted by Scoob
    When it's said that Zyklothyms are more "down to earth" and subject to environment in their thinking and behavior - could they also be characterized as passive and socially conformist? People like this would be the "mediocre herd" that Nietzsche and other thinkers talked about.

    Agrippa:

    Lets say it that way, there is some truth and Nietzsche is in fact the other extreme - typical schizothym later maybe even schizoid (between the healthy personality and Schizophrenia, the extreme of this type) and nost just becasue of his disease. Very important is the more emotional nature of the Zyklothyms. But its usually some kind of more superficial and short term emotions.

    (Scoob)
    Perhaps Schizothyms could be characterized as extremist - risk-takers, innovators, pioneers, wackos. :-) Non-conformists.

    Agrippa:


    That would only characterize a certain category of them more than the others. But you are right, its typical that they are best characterized by their extreme personality than anything else. Hopp or topp...white or black...seldom really something in between.
    And the other problem is that especially Schizothyms are very impressionable in their childhood. So they can be both, fanatic defenders or attackers of the system. F.e. I'm sure you could raise high energy-high sensibility twins with high intelligence in two families and one could be f.e. a egalitarian lefty extremist and the other a racist fanatic.

    There are basically 4 subgroups define by two factors: high-low energy, activity and high-low sensibility. Not to forget there are all in-between types possible. The low energy+low sensibility type is often totally incurious and indifferent. The low-energy+high sensibility are typical neurotical or very much thinking people, many artists and philosophers or pseudo-depressive people belong to this, many are grousers. The high-energy+low sensibility = typical manager, officer, oftentimes not looking left or right but is straight to his targets. The high-energy+high sensibility= in very much professions, often in creative jobs, often leftie etc...

    Its basically the same thing with Zyklothyms, but for them there is just the energy level important. The hypomanic type is often very active, much more than any Schizothym can be, but typical for this type is that he can do or say on one day that, on the next day this. But such types can be very successful as businessman, entertainers, politicians etc. The other Zyklothym extreme would be subdepressive. They can have strong values as well, but they lack often the rigorousness, permanence and fanatic character of Schizothyms.

    (Scoob)
    Very significant that it's said that Schizothyms feel a need to have a Weltanshauung (Zyklothyms don't? Hmm). This corresponds perhaps to Nietzsche's idea of "master morality" - which postulates its own values (which can be anything). There might be some truth to this system.

    Agrippa:


    The Schizothym need structures in his life and things which are or seem to be for sure. Zyklothyms have for sure a Weltanschauung too, but just think about typical suicide bombers, its very unlikely that Zyklothyms could do anything like that with the exception of very extreme environmental situations. This "sacrifice" of the soldier or believer for his ideas was at every time the thing of fanatics, both in its good form or its bad. In fact people like Ghandhi, Mother Theresa, etc. are fanatics too. The question is as I said not what they do, but what they do, or what they are used to do, thats something they do usually with great permanence.

    That can even mean that they are drug addicted and lazy with "great permanence". The question for such individuals is really a) how were they raised up, how was the environment which values, how stable, b) what energy and sensibility level they have (extreme sensibility is usually problematic and the most fanatic animal protectionist are mostly of that category, just look at the bodies of such individuals...), c) how good was the information they could gather and their education. Typical for the adults is, that often just Trauma can change their worldview significantly. F.e. Officers in wars, Managers after heart attack or when they get fired with 50 etc... Its typical that then, often their ex-first-target will be dropped down and they go in a phase of new-orientation.


    FOURTH POST:

    Originally Posted by FRED
    We can find many correlations and explain many thing through race/phenotype. Another correlation is religion: Catholics are usually a big headed people's religion and we can find a parallel between the spread of Catholicism and the spread of brachycephaly. I think Catholicism is more accepted among the bigger headed Upper-Paleolithics. Protestantism is the religion of nordic dolichocephals.
    The typical Catholic monk is a round headed bald man, while the typical Protestant is a nordic dolichocephal. Catholicism failed among dolichocephalic people. I think Scandinavia became more catholic with the spread of the Borrebys or other larger headed people.
    Belgium and Ireland are the 2 most catholic countries in Europe and are both inhabited by people with the biggest head in Europe. War of religion is race war in disguise. My 2 cents, correct me if I am wrong, and if anyone can develop...

    Agrippa:

    I think that there is no big correlation between religion and racial type in the sence that Leptosomic-Nordid= Protestant EVERY TIME.
    But again, as I said, fanatism is not the thing Zyklothyms adapt too often, Schizothyms much more often. If you want so, Lutheran Protestantism was not that extreme, but Calvinism was. It was even such a fanatic type of religious believe that it must have lead to inconsequent believers in its ranks. But just look at religious fanatics like Savonarola, Melanchthon, Calvin, etc. They are all very prominent Leptosomic-Schizothym characters. Its something that works on individuals better than in groups, but the typical form of well-disciplined Protestantism is more something for the Schizothymes, thats right.

    Like I said, Prussia and England in the 19th and early 20th century are the examples par excellance for a dominating ("manager"-like ^^) Schizothyme types. I have another example for the extremes of the Schizothyme type. Just think about women. In the 19th century the best women with oftentimes many children which they raised with great spirit and consequence were almost every time Schizothymes with an high energy level. On the other hand, what do they do today? They are often in carrieres and hedomatic, they dont care too much about family, children and community. Thats makes clear what is up with the Schizothymic type in comparison to Zyklothymes and Viscoeses. They have a lower instinctive level, they are, you could think more "free" to do what they want, and thats right.

    The Zyklothymes and Viscoese are more dominated by instincts. But on the other hand, that leads to an huge problem for Schizothymes, because the lack instinctive security, they are more mouldable, they need a substitution for their lack of instinctive security. Therefore they adopt structures of their environment for this purpose. That can be very good and effective, but it can be bad and destructive as well. Its his strength and weakness in one. I had the idea that both Zyklothymes and Schizothymes are newer adaptations because in the pre-Neolithic past Athletic-Viscoese people which a much higher level of instinctive security dominated.
    Zyklothymes are best adapted to the social life in cities, Schizothymes are best adapted for controlling their emotions and building something like "mobile security".

    Some peope, namely Zyklothymes need material and social security, others, namely the Schizothymes need a stable worldview and social structures. I often thought about the possibility that in herder ethnics groups, mobile ones, the Leptosomic and Schizothyme character is more advantageous. They are mobile, adapt their thinking to what they find in their environment but then they are very permanent in their acts. They have a good orientation, are persistent mentally and physically if healthy and usually good warriors (if not the hypersensible extreme or weak raised).

    One of the most extreme variants I can have in mind maybe the pure Tutsi warriors of (herders) the Hima states (Burundi-Rwanda), the Ethiopids in general, Semits (Orientalid), the Nordindid Aryans and the Nordids of Europe. They are all dominated more than the human average (just compare them too Indians which are more of the classic Athletic/stout build) by Leptosomics and as well by Schizothymes.

    I would tend to say this hypothesis:

    The classic type for herders in special and mobile warrior-farmers oftentimes too in temperate or hot climate is usually Leptosomic. (Classic types Nordid, Nordindid, Atlantid, Aethiopid). Hunter-gatherers usually show more Athletic tendencies with the exception of very extreme hot climate. (Classic types Borreby, Dalofaelid, Silvid (Indianid subtye). Townsfolk show more Pyknic dominated people, but with more extreme Leptosomic (with weak body = Asthenic) tendencies too in one mixed population. Maybe the effect of Self-domestication? (classic types Armenid, Zentralid (Indianid subtye). Modern civilizations usually tend to be very mixed but with a slight dominance of Leptosomics. Even more after the medical advantage, because the Leptosomic type was in the 18th and 19th century decimated because of his vulnerability to diseases in overpopulated areas, especially respiratory diseases (Tuberkulosis in special).

    I attached typical Central European Pyknish and Leptosomic facial types:







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    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, February 7th, 2006 at 11:16 AM.
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    Post Re: Kretschmers and Sheldon typologies.

    I don't know about the ``crash`` you are talking about, but this topic and discussion are very interesting.

    Someone said that Catholicism failed among dolichocephalic people...I think it's not true, meds in general are very dolichocephalic , and Portugal and Spain are typicall catholic countries. In really ,Catholicism failed among depigmented Germanic people.

    I was a very leptossomic type, nowdays I am much more athletic because I have trained hard, but still Schizothymic in Kretschmers scheme.
    Last edited by Euclides; Monday, March 22nd, 2004 at 03:01 AM.

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    Post Re: Kretschmers and Sheldon typologies.

    This also doesn't explain why Negroids are ectomorphic, dolichocephalic, and extroverted. While Mongoloids are endomorphic, brachycephalic, and introverted.

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    Post Re: Kretschmers and Sheldon typologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordhammer
    This also doesn't explain why Negroids are ectomorphic, dolichocephalic, and extroverted. While Mongoloids are endomorphic, brachycephalic, and introverted.
    Imo that can be explained mainly be Sextype and culture.

    The hormone levels and reception in Negrids is higher and different from those of Mongolids.

    Furthermore there are genetic influences which have nothing to do with physical constition.

    But in general the hormones and genes for the physical constitution influence, at least in extreme variants, the psychological one.

    If you look in Negrids, they arent really all Leptosomic at all, Some look even somewhat Leptosomic if they arent because of their in average longer and thinner legs f.e.
    In the Negrid group you can see the same differences as in others by constitution.

    What makes the (West African in special) Negrids so special is there greater masculinity on average, more explosive character and physique and their primitiviy in some parts.

    I should add that Schizothym is not alway Introverted and Introverted not alway shy.

    It is the way you perceive stimuli and react in your person more important than what you are actually doing sometimes if its about that concept.

    There can be a Zyklothyme and a Schizothyme which do the same thing but their perception and motivation is different.
    A Schizothym with higher hormone levels, non-extreme-sensible traits and an education/nurture which fosters his self-confidence and aspiration for success or dominance can be really extraverted in an extreme way.

    Or lets say "appear to be" very socializing and extraverted because he is using and have fun with people but on the other hand, such types are still different in their kind of humor, emotions, perception and reaction to certain stimuli, etc...

    On the other hand a typical Zyklothym with an high level for sensibility and in Kretschmers terms for subdepression will be extremely introverted but will always search for contacts and being emotional in a specific way.

    The typical anchorite and ascetic will almost everytime be exclusively Schizothym whereas the involuntary depressive maverick can be always both, a sensible/introverted Schizothym or subdepressive/sensible Zyklothym.

    It can be even more complicated if such Schizothym mavericks getting secondary depressives.

    The difference is that Zyklothyms often manoevre themselves in such a situation because of their inner tendencies in which they have a breakdown, wheres those Schizothyms didnt change their behaviour to much but the situation lead to real desperation becausse of the situation and not of cyklic mental fluctuation in Zyklothyms.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Friday, April 23rd, 2004 at 01:03 PM.
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    Post Re: Kretschmers and Sheldon typologies.

    This article is also very important for my herder-farmer comparison and the different psychological-physical types related to the social organization and subsistence pattern of both.

    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthre...550#post108550
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    Post Re: Kretschmers and Sheldon typologies.

    I tried to change these ideas a bit into temperaments and associated traits. It can be seen as a vague parallel to schizothym and cyclothymic.

    Leptosomic (dolichocephalic/slender): Rather sanguine. Animating, big aims, unhindered, even, in the center of attention, blushful, adroit, detached, straightforward, aesthetic, lightheaded, hypocritic, volatile, overreacting, weak perception, skittish, prone to extremes, apathetic, neurotic. Pertaining to the element of air.

    Pyknic (brachycephalic/thick-set): Rather choleric. Eager, organized, caring, affective, shrewd, irascible, loyal, strong means, open-minded, vigorous, practical, comfortable, pigheaded, sullen, tense, obsessive, pusillanimous, easy to affront, depressive. Pertaining to the element of fire.


    - I know many persons that fit into this pattern but I also know many that are in betweens (physically and psychically).
    - If this scheme is wrong this would lead to the possibility that the Greek concept of temperaments is wrong as well.
    - I can't see a clear tendency concerning melancholy and phlecmatic temperament. This should reflect that something must depend on the individual as well.
    - I also think that high endocranial volume is generally (independent of type) linked with a better long-run memory and doing better in high age. An intelligence advantage would be small but if existent, the difference should be stable (at least in theory; potentials are mostly not fully used).
    Last edited by Gareth; Friday, November 12th, 2004 at 05:39 PM.

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    Post Re: Kretschmers and Sheldon typologies.

    More scans to illustrate it, one about growth and depth of the thorax in relation to the body height both in children and in the different body types (endomorphic, mesomorphic, ectomorphic), a description of the various features of the constitutional variants in German and the basic system of Sheldon with his 3 number scheme and examples for the extremes. All scans are from Gerhard Heberer, Ilse Schwidetzky, Das Fischer Lexikon - Anthropologie, Frankfurt a.M. und Hamburg 1970.




    Basically the same graphic is in Knußmann 1996, S. 240.





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    Post Re: Typical NW German woman?

    I had misunderstood you. Her body is indeed not that of a typical pyknic. I think that she is closest to the athletic type.

    What you perceive as her behaviour and temperament has an environmental side. Many women seem hysterical to me, Feminists more so.

    You seem to acribe almost everything positive to Schizothymes. What is negative about them?
    Lundman wrote that E. Kretschmer discern these three types:

    1) the pyknic or the fat type is genial (gemütlich?) and easy-going, but indolent and inclined to enjoyment, and not seldom periodically tormented of melancholy.

    2) the athletic or the sinewy type is rough straightforward, often one-sided and fairly unimaginative.

    3) the asthenic or the thin type is nervously tense, often overtense with a predisposition for persecution mania and "complex".

    These are more or less the extreme types studied by the German psychiatrist E. Kretschmer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Not that linear, but overall rather leptomorphic, as I said, not Pyknic - because usually more zyklothyme-zykloid people tend to be of Pyknic constution - but in her case it doesnt fit.
    Last edited by Glenlivet; Tuesday, September 6th, 2005 at 08:32 PM.

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    Post Re: Typical NW German woman?

    No, Michel Friedman f.e., I dislike much more than her, because I perceive her rather as a victim with a difficult life story which should have had a strong and decent male to control her emotional eruptions, is not really a zyklothyme - but like f.e. Wolfowitz too, rather schizothyme, though of a type not that often found in Northern Europe indigenously, with a strong tendency towards hypocrisy as a result of strong egocentric behaviour and high social intelligence.

    I wrote in reaction to an image of Michel Houellebecq:

    Yes, the French is typical Alpinid with Leptosomic (rather gracile-Asthenic - which are mostly rather sensitive and tend towards idealised views about the world) constitution. But whats typical for French Alpinids with Leptosomic constitution is that their head looks quite big for the body, the shoulders are narrow and the body looks just weak. Not the same as a sinewy Leptosomic from unreduced Europid racial types which virtually dont exist in the typical Alpinids and is a major reason for their limited success in combat proven officers if compared with the more progressive variants.

    The relation between hyperaesthetic and energetic Schizothymes can be usually best described as the first having more fantasy and ideas, often stupid ones, because just a few reach the necessary intellectual level and suffer from their neurotic and hypersensitive tendencies, sometimes they tend to schizoid and schizophrenic behaviour, but sometimes very good ones and the later being creative too, but not as much, more making something real out of it by adapting it and functioning themselves. So in typical "intellectuals" you find more Asthenics-gracile Leptosomics and in officers, professors and managers more sinewy Leptosomic ones, but the spiritual elite is almost always schizothyme between those two poles (aesthetic and energetic) normally with the exception of hypomanic preachers...

    The intelligent energetic schizothymes are the backbone of every society, especially the higher evolved ones.

    Michel Houellebecq is definitely a more aesthetic schizothyme, which fits with his body type - an ideas producer, but not hard nor efficient enough for certain conclusions nor their realisation. No real wright.

    http://dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=physanth&action=display& thread=1125617568&page=2

    I wrote in the context of debrachycephalisation:

    The secular acceleration and debrachycephalisation is mostly environmental, because of better nutrition and overall different conditions. Furthermore brachycephalecy seems to be rather subdominant from what I see, so more mobility and mixture might lead to a further decrease of the average CI.

    Another factor might be that certain plagues and constant hunger are not as important any more, so that more leptomorphic individuals can survive in poor conditions, situations. So especially in the lowest classes a certain proportional increase of leptomorphics might be in some areas possible, whereas the leptomorphic elite is further decreasing because of low reproductive rates.
    Furthermore whereas in earlier times mainly pyknomorphics had more children, that is still true, but many just average intelligent or bourgeois people dont get no children any more too, so that the lowest elements have more children. Under them leptomorphics are present as well, because their schizothyme behaviour leads with a certain subculture and lower intelligence to higher reproductive rates too.

    Not all schizothymes are intelligent and for sure not all successful, because they have a strong will and try to adapt the environment more than zyklothymes, which adapt themselves more to the conditions, are more opportunistic - now even average educated, intelligent people have less children. We can say, in the past this elements of average success were strongly zyklothym and had more children than the leptomorphic elite, now with just the lowest classes having more children, its different, because there its more mixed and a strong proportion of less intelligent schizothymes is present.

    Social success in group oriented societies is different from the individualist one, in which just peak types with strong will, intelligence and ideals get up, otherwise socialising, adapted, frugal and compliant individuals have more social success than more headstrong ones. Now this adapted typical petty bourgeois lack sufficient reproductive rates too, mainly because of emancipation affecting them and adapted behaviour now means career oriented thinking, though they often want children, and waiting...

    At the beginning that was mainly true for schizothyme elite types, not its a common phenomenon.

    Contra-selection influences both the proportions of racial types and the composition of racial types (peak, elite types vs. average and lowest ones) themselves. F.e. in the big cities, in more than 3 generations, usually just the lowest Nordids survive and the most new elites come from the surviving families, but as much, or even more from rural areas.

    Now, because the rural areas have reproductive imbalance too, no supplies are coming anymore, whats the reason why we face a catastrophe in Europe in just 2-3 generations if no pronatal and Eugenic policy will be implemented.


    So finally:

    This leads to the conclusion that schizothyms have a stronger introversion, which doesnt even have to mean they are shy, but that their inner psychic life can overcome reality or real conditions. So, if they are intelligent and get the right informations and adopt a good behaviour, they will keep it more likely and will fight for the ideals themselves, not just because other people do it, friends or family, neither because they have strong personal advantages, profit from doing it, but because they love the idea itself and have it in their mind, something most zyklothymes cannot evolve - they must see persons, have emotions, see concrete direct results, but they dont fight for an idea for itself too often.

    Of course, if schizothymes get the wrong informations, adopt bad behaviour and are less intelligent, they can be very problematic and are usually useless. Even if they just lack one of the points, they are often less successful, usually unsuccessful. Oftentimes they are one sided, get a tunnel vision, f.e. religious fanatics, absolute hedonists, swindlers, brutal criminals, become easier parasexuals, hypocrites, bums, drug addicts, persons running amok, career oriented etc...

    Thats the case if they lack the balance. Many which lack the balance are still very efficient...in their area, in others not. Typical specialists. But the balanced ones, or just creative ones, as are the specialists and energetic types, are just irreplaceable. The main weakness of the schizothyme is, as I said, bad information, with information meaning what comes in his mind from his praenatal phase on. In a healthy group oriented society, in which they are stipulated, have clear rules, the elite gets raised in a balance way, the function perfectly, they are unbeatable. But in a complex social, chaotic environment with many things which can go wrong, the loss rate is higher than in zyklothymes which just adapt smoothly to what they encounter. They are more opportunistic, compliant, frugal, socialise easier and are more practical minded. Their problem is the lack of real creative thinking, the fantasy, the idealism of the schizothyme - they are usually more prone to corruption obviously, not ready to sacrifice anything if its not justified by practical reasons they can understand from looking at their direct environment. They can mainly understand what they see, they lack quite often deeper abstract logic more or less free of emotions, which is typical for the schizothyme analyser. The schizothyme analyser is looking at things, and at problems with humans as if they are things oftentimes, zyklothymes are more oriented on persons, emotions, relations. Again, we are speaking about the higher intellectual level, in the lowest regions you see the same dry, but seldomly affective explosions too, but usually no abstract analysis obviously.

    Schizothymes reach everything or nothing, they have high energy or none, are usually more constant, whereas zyklothymes reach only much if they are intelligent hypomanics, which are something special, the normal zyklothymes are very average, rather petty bourgeois.

    If you want somebody who wants to reach the stars, better look for schizothymes, if you want somebody to organise a party, better take a hypomaniac...

    The peak types, the real honest idealists are more often schizothymes. All the failures of that temperament are horrible, but if they are in a good structure and the worst sorted out (Eugenic), their moralic and efficiency level can reach the highest heights and thats the future. People which want the higher, dont have to be allured nor threatened, just educated properly, and with having the right information, they come to the right conclusions without primitive emotions constricting them - because they love great things, ideas, the great creation for itself. Sure they want power, sex, material things too like every normal human being, but they are ready to sacrifice small things for higher values if necessary ones they understood the necessity and are educated to overlook those small things. You can't await that from a much lower percentage of zyklothymes, they are just not "fanatic" nor "thing-oriented" enough. They will always fall back to certain emotions, small thinking, orientation to persons etc., no matter how they are raised. So they are useful for certain aspects of life, even very useful, but not in the political leadership nor military elite f.e.

    Intelligent schizothyms are almost never naturally folksy, really almost never. This close contact with masses, f.e. if its about politicians is only possible via a facade whereas the zyklothyme is really get carried away by the people, the emotions of the others. The schizothyme only in his mind, because of the power he feels, everything goes through a filter if you want so, whereas the zyklothyme is more direct, complete, not split, but also not able to control nor to hide his emotions as good.

    Two more threads about that issue:

    Kretschmer and Sheldon's Typologies


    Somatopsychical Structures in Human Races



    Concerning Bärbel Schäfer, she is typically superficial, also her emotions are rather superficial, she is an affective chatterbox, was the same from the beginning, and is very oriented on persons. Typical for a rather hypomanic zyklothym-zykloid.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, September 6th, 2005 at 09:25 PM.
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    Post Re: Typical NW German woman?

    There can be even zyklothyme Pyknic leaders I would support before getting another schemer and power greedy schizothyme, but balanced and well educated and informed schizothymes are the best leaders because they decide less emotional and can have a strong sense for ideas, goals and justice.

    Some typical ideal schizothymes, rather energetic, though somewhat aesthetic too from antiquity:
    Perikles, Alexander the Great, Cato, Caesar, Augustus/Octavian, Agrippa, Trajan, Hadrian etc...
    Cato the elder (Marcus Porcius Priscus) - not perfect physically probably, but quite racially progressive and definitely an excellent example for a great schizothyme character with superiour moral in history. "After I am dead I would rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
    He was not always right, but he was still a great man nonetheless.

    The sharp facial features of rather Leptosomic individuals with rather progressive features and schizothyme temperament is what you see in the well balanced leaders.
    Of course in our times and system, to be a great mediator, socialiser, hypocrite and showmaster can be more important than making strong and mostly right decisions. Its all about "image" you know and being folksy is something intelligent and idealistic schizothymes are, as a rule of thumb, practically never.

    Under officers, especially combat proven heros, the right decisions and a spotless conduct can be still more important than making ridiculous shows...

    Again, looking back at all the great emperors and greatest politicians of Rome, finding rather Pyknic-zyklothyme individuals, we find Vitellius the bootlicker.

    Sure, zyklothyms are useful members of the group, especially hypomanic organisers, but generally, typical zyklothyms are too emotional, personal oriented and instable for being in the absolute leadership, they are often too soft, or because of emotional changes too cruel without a reason, without constance, as their emotions generally take them away too often and can change without real input. Schizothymes are more absolute, so if they are balanced and good educated, they are almost incorruptible by material things, follow ideals and higher goals, even if they have to fight a world of enemies. Many zyklothyms lose their path if they have just one, because they always need (positive) emotional response...

    Helmut Kohl is a nice rather zyklothyme (no real hypomanic-but rather between the poles of zyklothymes (hypomanic and subdepressive) example, good guy in a way, likes to eat, lives his small life, no great ideas, simple one, reaches what seems possible at the moment, no great planning for the future...
    Diplomacy means flattery, to lull, eat a roast and asking personal questions, appeasing. No man for great ideas, nor great token gestures or words. Thinks in what is there, can't think beyond it, is easy to corrupt, can get easily upset, but easily appeased too. Wins with sympathy and warmness, folksy gestures and simple-honest appearances, limited understanding of great ideals to the full extend, is foreign to his character without personal connections, emotional understanding.

    No man for difficult times, nor desperate situations, only able to go on in the same direction others already have taken, probably making things somewhat better or worse, but very seldom new directions nor real solutions for big problems coming directly from such politicians.

    If a zyklothym has fanatic ideas, you can assume that he has very personal interests in most cases, with the exception of hypomanic-manic religious fanatics, if a schizothyme has fanatic ideas, most believe in it, just some are as hypocritical and tend to be almost sociopathic, really split. Schizothyms think, if they believe in an idea they act sooner or later, for what they think is right, no matter what, at least if strong-energetic, zyklothyms feel and act probably if others do it too, they depend much more on the outside world, on the response of others people and emotional vibrations...

    Such behaviour is, what was my original point, unacceptable in a mobile warlike society if too extreme and if appearing too often. Such adaptive behaviour can be successful in bigger, more complex, even chaotic social structures of sedentary farmer societies, villages and cities obviously. Though again, the highest ranks of the leadership, of those leaders which change the course, will not be made out of them.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
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