View Poll Results: Do you believe in angels?

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  • Yes, I do

    13 50.00%
  • No, I do not

    10 38.46%
  • I am not sure

    2 7.69%
  • Other, I'll explain below

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Thread: Do you Believe in Angels?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
    The question is, why in the NT do they stress that they are fellow workers/servants and not beings who are to be worshiped?
    Angels aren't supposed to be worshiped, but they can certainly be venerated (dulia).

    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
    It follows that angels also develop in assisting us. To say otherwise is to imply that they are perfect/flawless. I'm of the belief that they used to be human before making the transition to a higher stage of development.
    I believe the angels are pure spirit (no physical element), and they possess sheer intelligence and will. Their intelligence is second only to God's. Why do you think they were ever human? The Fourth Lateran Council declared that the angels preceded man. Whether angels preceded the material world is uncertain, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
    There are no "fallen" angels and the notion that angels came down to mate with human women is a fantast's tale.
    Well, I have no knowledge about angels mating with human women. Is that what supposedly produced the Nephilim or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
    In the OT, all angels served god, even those with an apparently negative disposition.
    What about the demon Asmodeus in the Book of Tobias? God allowed Asmodeus to kill the seven men with unholy motives, but I don't think that the Asmodeus or any other demons serve God per se. Rather, demons are subject to God, and their power is limited.
    Domine, ut videam, ut videamus, ut videant!

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    No, I do not but I find the concept of Angels to be interesting.

  3. #13
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    Yes. I do believe that heavenly angels are the SONS of God the Father.

    Since immortal beings do not require the ability to reproduce sexually, such gender distinctions are unnecessary.

    "8. Angels do not marry

    Jesus taught that in the resurrection people “neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30, see also Luke 20:34–36). This clearly suggests that angels don’t marry.
    No other passages address relationships between angels, so anything beyond this is simply speculation."

    Depicting female angels in art, for example, is just a way of expressing the kindness and generosity that are considered to be inherent qualities of divine mothers protecting innocent mortals, especially children, from harm, which angels assigned by God do.

    Due to our inability to see the entire spectrum of light, or hear the full range of sound that exists, we have been deliberately prevented from actually observing any kind of divine activity transpiring within the otherwise known universe.

    "14. Angels are not to be worshipped

    “Worship of angels” was one of the false doctrines being taught at Colossae (Colossians 2:18). In the book of Revelation, an angel warns John not to worship him: “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God” (Revelation 19:10)."

    https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/b...-facts-angels/


    “A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.” Robert A. Heinlein

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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    I believe the angels are pure spirit (no physical element), and they possess sheer intelligence and will. Their intelligence is second only to God's. Why do you think they were ever human?
    But then how were the angels able to manifest in human form (Gen. 19)? They cannot be amorphous shapeshifters. Probably all kinds of consciousness require a material form/basis to even exist.

    It'd be worthwhile to read the three objections cited by St. Thomas Aquinas: https://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/F...l#FPQ50A1THEP1 He cites St. John Damascene and Ambrose as arguing for a material basis. Aquinas was perplexed by the apparent contradiction between the Philosopher Aristotle and Damascene's statements. He didn't realize that Aristotle had particularly conceived his works for an audience unperceptive of spiritual matters (sophists), which should have made him think twice before extolling Aristotle as an infallible authority.

    St. Thomas Aquinas also erroneously stated, "But the very fact that intellect is above sense is a reasonable proof that there are some incorporeal things comprehensible by the intellect alone."

    On the contrary, sense transcends knowledge.

    But instinct is something which transcends knowledge. We have, undoubtedly, certain finer fibers that enable us to perceive truths when logical deduction, or any other willful effort of the brain, is futile. - Nikola Tesla

    The observation of the world perceived by the senses precedes the knowledge given by exact science as well as by philosophy. - Hitler, Table Talk (Cameron & Stevens), January 25-26, 1942
    How was Jesus able to know all men (John 2:25)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    The Fourth Lateran Council declared that the angels preceded man. Whether angels preceded the material world is uncertain, though.
    Some angels are given charge over whole nations, this was established in the book of Daniel. In Plato's Critias, we read: "Now different gods had their allotments in different places which they set in order." Akhenaten said similarly. Thus, the angels preceded the material world.

    Also, in the same contexts, the differences between races are affirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    Well, I have no knowledge about angels mating with human women. Is that what supposedly produced the Nephilim or something?
    Another way to look at the Nephilim:

    Robert Baker Girdlestone[4] argued in 1871 the word comes from the Hiphil causative stem, implying that the nephilim are to be perceived as "those that cause others to fall down".
    Or more specifically, those who cause others to fall below the level of the animal, below human dignity (Matthew 23:15). Pharisees! Moralists! Jewish types.

    Such an intermarriage between the naturally formed races and the half-castes is the source of our poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    What about the demon Asmodeus in the Book of Tobias? God allowed Asmodeus to kill the seven men with unholy motives, but I don't think that the Asmodeus or any other demons serve God per se. Rather, demons are subject to God, and their power is limited.
    Sounds reminiscent of the seven martyrs in the book of Maccabees. Surely it's symbolic.

    In that very same book (Tobit), there's an instance of an angel manifesting in human form.

    I'd wager that god's forces are the ones that are limited in power, since they abide by natural laws. Recall that Jesus did not come to annul the laws of god. He only attempted to neutralize the Jewish laws. He obviously didn't mind breaking the human regulations (i.e. eating the Sabbath). Recall that Mr. Antichrist has been described as the man of lawlessness. Belial has also been associated with lawlessness. The satanists can proceed with further impunity since their instincts aren't held in check, but god does not hinder the laws of evolution.

    Outside the start of the book of Job, we never read about Satan and his angels killing any human beings. Instead, Death itself, a natural and necessary process, is represented as an enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Lee Hunter View Post
    Yes. I do believe that heavenly angels are the SONS of God the Father.

    Since immortal beings do not require the ability to reproduce sexually, such gender distinctions are unnecessary.

    "8. Angels do not marry

    Jesus taught that in the resurrection people “neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30, see also Luke 20:34–36). This clearly suggests that angels don’t marry.
    No other passages address relationships between angels, so anything beyond this is simply speculation."
    That's a blatant contradiction. The sons of god in Genesis 6 couldn't have been angels if they do not marry. "Satan" has been cast out of heaven in the symbolic sense, but there's nothing to indicate that he and his angels are no longer summoned to the council (1 Kings 22). It's only fair that all national and international representatives would be present when a decision is made by the supreme deity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Lee Hunter View Post
    "14. Angels are not to be worshipped

    “Worship of angels” was one of the false doctrines being taught at Colossae (Colossians 2:18). In the book of Revelation, an angel warns John not to worship him: “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God” (Revelation 19:10)."
    In this context, he clearly means human messengers, not heavenly messengers. He couples this worship with "false humility" (the Psalmist also coupled two notions together in Psalms) which he explicitly identifies with "human commands and teachings".

    The ancient Germans were won over by transforming their Yuletide celebration into Christmas. The ancient Romans conceived of the genii, but the early Christians made it a man-centered concept.

  6. #15
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    Yes, I do, but not in a strictly Christian sense...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    According to St. Clement and St. Gregory the Great, each country, city and town has a special guardian angel.
    I'd like to know more about the specific guardian angels for each country... don't know if there's such information anywhere... but it makes me think about why Corneliu Zelea Codreanu chose Archangel Michael for the Legionary Movement... there's an explanation about why he felt inspired so, it's written in one of his books, but I am thinking about the country...

    Anyway, your post contains lots of useful information, thank you for that! Now I know what authors to look for if I want to read more about the angels... You seem to have read pretty much about angels, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    St. Augustine even believed that there are angels who watch over animals and the physical world.
    Yes! In my opinion he was actually referring to the elemental spirits and fairies... These are also present in heathen/ pre-Christian religions, but they have different names there, they are not called angels... But still they belong to the same category of beings...

    My point is... saints like St. Augustine go far beyond their religion... and are able to sense things and write about things far beyond that...

    The problem is with the dogmatism... and too many mental speculations on such things... The Churches imposed many dogmas... and this is how the angels of nature became something else in theory and... not to mention the Inquisition and other things the Church did...

    Better to see beyond these things what's valuable and authentic...


    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Lee Hunter View Post
    Since immortal beings do not require the ability to reproduce sexually, such gender distinctions are unnecessary.
    Well, I disagree with this! Angels do have gender and they do make love one with each other (male with female)... But since they don't need to reproduce, they do it just because of love and pleasure... so reproduction is out of discussion...

    Of course, the Church denies such things... it's about dogmas...

    In Heaven, all the angels are married pairs (except in the case of new arrivals who are still awaiting their partners). They are so completely one in heart and mind, that often, when together, they are mistaken for one person. Swedenborg would see what looked like a single angel approaching him; but when closer he would discover that it was in fact a husband and wife. They were "no more two, but one." Husbands and wives in Heaven are not always at each other's side. They have their work to do, which may take them temporarily apart. But always there is perfect telepathy between them.

    As we have already seen, husbands and wives have sexual intercourse in Heaven, but no children are produced. Only on the physical plane ("in ultimates," as Swedenborg would say) can children be conceived and born.
    Source: Emanuel Swedenborg

    Of course the dogmatic and prudish Church (no matter which denomination) will never recognize that angels have genitals and that they make love for pleasure, not for reproduction... because they say sexuality is something to be ashamed of... and they cover such things in guilt and so on...

    If anyone is interested, there's more to read from Emanuel Swedenborg about that...

    Also, Doreen Virtue has some nice and good books about the angels... and archangels... and also there's a book she wrote with Robert Reeves about angels of nature...

    I won't go into speculations within this topic... Angels are much easier to approach and make friends with, so... better try to make friends with nature angels or nature spirits or nature elementals, for example... and see what happens!
    Die Farben duften frisch und grün... Lieblich haucht der Wind um mich.

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  8. #16
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    All religions recognize the existence of angels, they only are given different names in different religions. Their attributes and roles are though quite similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    According to St. Clement and St. Gregory the Great, each country, city and town has a special guardian angel.
    This reminded me of Athens who had Goddess Athena as a patron Goddess. This is just an example. Many places had patron deities as their protectors.

    Another example: Hyperboreans were very much into the cult of the Sun, and the cult of the God of the Sun, Apollo, and that can be an explanation why it is said that in Hyperborea the Sun was shining 24 hours out of 24.

    Also, Goddess Artemis was/is the protector of wildlife.


    And another example, from Buddhism:

    The Protectors (Sanskrit pāla) or Dharmapāla (Dharma protectors), are powerful beings, often Devas or Bodhisattvas who protect the Buddhist religion and community from inner and outer threats and obstacles to their practice. A Dharmapala can also be a Garuda, Nāga, Yaksha, Gandharva, or Asura. Other categories of Protectors include the Lokapālas or "Four Heavenly Kings" and Kṣetrapālas or "Protectors of the Region".

    Read more: Fierce deities
    As described in the very beginning of the above mentioned source, the fierce deities make me think of the attributes of Archangel Michael, among others...

    Also, in Christianity, various pagan/heathen gods were assimilated and became 'saints' in the Christian calendar. For example, Saint George. In Daco-Romanian folklore, he has the attributes of an old heathen god, but the Christian church created some other legends to overlap with the ancient cult, since they couldn't make people not worship that heathen god anymore. And it goes the same with many 'Christian saints': if you look into folklore, you can easily see many of them are pre-Christian gods and goddesses...
    Die Farben duften frisch und grün... Lieblich haucht der Wind um mich.

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  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post

    I'd like to know more about the specific guardian angels for each country... don't know if there's such information anywhere... but it makes me think about why Corneliu Zelea Codreanu chose Archangel Michael for the Legionary Movement... there's an explanation about why he felt inspired so, it's written in one of his books, but I am thinking about the country...
    I'd like to know about specific guardian angels for each country, too, but I'm not aware of any comprehensive list. I do know that even though Germany doesn't have a patron saint (or is it St. Boniface?), St. Michael is said to be the saint of Germanic peoples.


    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post
    Anyway, your post contains lots of useful information, thank you for that! Now I know what authors to look for if I want to read more about the angels... You seem to have read pretty much about angels, isn't it?
    Thank you, and you're welcome! I certainly enjoy reading about angels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post
    Yes! In my opinion he was actually referring to the elemental spirits and fairies... These are also present in heathen/ pre-Christian religions, but they have different names there, they are not called angels... But still they belong to the same category of beings...

    My point is... saints like St. Augustine go far beyond their religion... and are able to sense things and write about things far beyond that...
    St. Augsutine wrote about so many interesting topics. In City of God, he even discusses succubi, incubi, fauns and satyrs! But both St. Augustine and St. Thomas believed that angels were capable of assuming bodies from time to time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post
    I won't go into speculations within this topic... Angels are much easier to approach and make friends with, so... better try to make friends with nature angels or nature spirits or nature elementals, for example... and see what happens!
    Oh yes, it's a great thing to have a devotion to angels, and especially to one's guardian angel! In Catholicism, Tuesday is traditionally the day associated with angels. I converse with and pray to my guardian angel, and to the guardian angels of other people, too.

    Speaking of nature elementals, I have some heathen friends who were experiencing poltergeist-like activity in their home, which they attributed to elementals.
    Domine, ut videam, ut videamus, ut videant!

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    I'd like to know about specific guardian angels for each country, too, but I'm not aware of any comprehensive list. I do know that even though Germany doesn't have a patron saint (or is it St. Boniface?), St. Michael is said to be the saint of Germanic peoples.
    Is Archangel Michael said to be the protector of the German people specifically or of the Germanic peoples in general?

    As examples of specific countries that have a patron goddess, I recall Cyprus, that has Aphrodite as a patron goddess since Ancient times, and a lot of places there are named after her: the Hills of Aphrodite, the Rock of Aphrodite, the Baths of Aphrodite etc. Goddess Aphrodite is said to have been born in Cyprus...

    Some interesting readings on this:

    Aphrodite, Goddess of Cyprus
    The Cult of Aphrodite in Cyprus

    Cyprus is a separate country (even though divided in two), so... we can have an example of a country associated with a patron goddess, even though she is not so venerated today, now it's more about tourism and history than about her ancient cult.

    And there's another example that came to my mind...

    I couldn't find anything like that on the internet in a rapid search, but a while ago I attended some teachings hold by an authentic spiritual master from Tibet... and he said clearly that The Green Tara is the protector goddess of Tibet. She was and she still is considered the protector of Tibet, I mean Tibetan people are still venerating her today.

    The Green Tara is just an aspect of the Great Goddess Tara... Tara is a very interesting deity, present in many cultures around the world...

    From Wikipedia: Tara (Devi) and Tara (Buddhism). But we also have Tara as an important Celtic deity in Europe, there is The Hill of Tara in Ireland... More about that: Ancient Sites: The Hill of Tara.

    We also have the Goddess Gaia or Gaea, who is the protector of our planet... She was named Terra by the Romans, maybe she's the same Goddess as Tara... Gaea (Gaia) and Gaia.

    There's a contemporary scientist, James Lovelock, who brought Gaia to the world of science:




    I wonder if anyone who has read more on Germanic heathenism can recall of any places or specific groups of people that have gods or goddesses as their patrons...

    Well, we are now in the Christianity sub-forum, but anyway... maybe, hopefully, someone will read and answer this...

    Angels are far beyond any religion, as I previously emphasized...
    Die Farben duften frisch und grün... Lieblich haucht der Wind um mich.

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