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Thread: Genetic info on the Nordification of Europe

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    Senior Member Scoob's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Genetic info on the Nordification of Europe

    Here's some new genetic info. It can be found on groups.google.com on the usenet forum sci.anthropology - under postings by Philip (or Phillip?) Deitiker. I've included message ID's so you can find the posts yourself.

    I have compiled some informative excerpts - relevant to genetic history of Europe, Asia, and the Americas. Includes info on ancient Western European migrations to/from East Asia and the Americas. This is all based on HLAs - which are autosomal DNA, not from Y chromosomes or mtDNA, which both can produce a skewed picture.

    This information requires a bit of study to understand - it's written in semi-shorthand by someone who does genetic testing himself - and is presented in a disorganized way. He also has a Yahoo group "DNAanthro" dedicated to this info.


    A few definitions:

    HLA: gene sequence
    WEA: West Eur-Asia (in other words Europe)
    LGM: Last Glacial Maximum


    See attached text file. I'll quote an excerpt of the attached file below, to whet the appetite of the serious...


    NORSE/IRISH EUROPEAN "SUPER"EXPANSION:

    What about europe. One can tract the european advance with the HLA DQ set DQ2.5 (DQA1*0501-DQB1*0201) this set appears to have spread from the western Ilses (at higher frequencies) or the Basque at lower frequencies. The settlement of scandavia appears to have been fed from the west, probably a shrinking glacial-Ireland in response to deglaciation. The swedes have what appears to be admix between more or less Irish and eastern european haplotypes (70 to 30% approximately). And the norse appear to have carried the DQ2.5 with them whereever they traveled. This haplotype reaches the eastern turkic republics but does not significantly reach past the transbiakal region prior to russian expansion. In essense we can disregard historic migrations eastward from european peoples. There is however evidence from more than one prehistoric migrations. There appears to have been a migration from the western black sea region eastward. The haplotypes are found in the Inuit, similar to the Yakuts, and to uygars and these are found spottily over siberia and in some mongolian groups. This may be the 'red-haired' people found in western china that are increasingly discussed. The older migrations from europe and middle east have previously been discussed. The haplotypes brought by this people 'largely' differentiate southern han from mongolians. Like it or not.


    NORDIFICATION OF EUROPE:


    The big problem with europe is that it historical has gone through the same thing as china [super-expansion of one group]. At one time there were more 'asian' looking people in eastern europe. I say asian to contrast them with Irish/Norse phenotypes. They looked more east asian because of selection and ancestry, not because of gene flow. What happens is that the african phenotypes that traveled early into south asia represented more asia looking africans (see andaman islanders, !kung other H/G south african tribes). These peoples radiated in many directions, and LiuJiang of china which already shows some orient features probably represents a direct migration through indochina. Whereas other peoples migrated to equitorial climates and underwent sort of convergent evolution with equitorial tropical africans, this is probably reinforced by later waves from equitorial africa that dilute these east asian features. However, the first migrants stay at the front edge of inland migration because of phenotype and the more african looking peoples stay coastal, pacific rim dwellers. This inland radiation occurs also into central asia.

    Whereas east asian protosinites are somewhat isolated, the western asian population is constantly being influenced by technogenetic migrations from northern africa, and the original populations in the middleeastern to indus regions are displaced by migrations from NE africa and from west africa via europe. This is not to say there was no migration, it appears that a dominant hapltype A3 Cw7 B7 DR15 haplotype (Cw0701 B7 is nodal in the !kung of africa) was probably of asian origin traveled up the danube river and mixed with other african derivatives in western europe. This same group appears to have also dominated central asia, and was taking on some caucasian character.

    However the major drive to caucasian phenotype appears to have been in western europe and this center migrated north to Ireland, IMHO, before the peak of the LGM where it was completely isolate as a small population on the extreme western coast of glacial europe. In most instance this isolation would have spelt doom once expansion began, however in the instance the tribe was probably under such hostile selection (and we can deduce this because it was at a size capable of producing a single long haplotype A1 Cw0702 B0801 DRB10301 DQA1*0501 DQB1*0201 that are uncommonly detected in abundance except in very small closely interbreeding groups). This hostile selection probably resulted in the appearance of survival technologies that greatly benifited this peoples as the ice age ends and allow an assymetric expansion south and eastward. Whereas the sister group, the basque remained rather contained as with other iberian groups, this group expands, first producing the ancestors of the cornish, admixing into eastern coastal groups of the north sea and also spreading around the eastern side of western europe.

    The peoples that lived in france, genetically appeared to have all but been wiped out, there are few distinguishable high frequency nodes in france and germany that appear to have a long history most appear to have been wiped out and frances and germanies current population looks most of immigrants from all directions. The nodes that do appear in france are all related to nodes that appear in japan and korea; however, these nodes, via recombination analysis can be linked to the basque, iberians, austria and other european groups. Therefore it is likely at the LGM these groups were largely displaced, and did not make a substantive comeback afterwards. Specific basque, iberian, portuguese haplotypes are not found in east asia. Therefore the evidence is very precise. The nodal haplotypes in the Irish also do not appear in far east asia. However these haplotypes appear at high levels in the swedes, people of nordo-slavic origin, eastern europeans, and these extend eastward as previously discussed.

    The iberians and the basque. Despite evidence the HLA data suggests that sardinian, iberians and basques manage to survive the LGM in sufficient numbers at numerous locals capable of sustaining several separable population. While there are locals in italy that appear to have nodes, like the tuscany region, italy seems to represent also a many recent repopulations from other areas, indicating a probable population crash. mtDNA, HLA suggest a ancient relationship between the southern french, tuscan, and basque peoples and I would contend that during and well after the LGM that the regions north of these areas was devoid of human occupation except possibly a few inter-isolate western coastal sites in NW europe (two notables are the protoIrish/Cornish/Scottish and the belgium).

    West to east gene flow. Given the ties of western europeans to berbers and western sub-saharan africans I would suggest that the LGM was not a culturally dead period for europeans, it is likely that technologies and some trade remained with a more productive western africa, and while isolated by glaciation these cultures continued to evolve, adapt and learned to survive as the neandertals had. After the end of glaciation there appears to have been migrations eastward from the basque regions into czech, caucasus, anatolia, poland and central europe. These people being more caucasian than the original inhabitants. There also appears to have been expansion from the black sea region to the east. Some of these geneflow patterns can be seen in the current makeup of siberians, including koreans, but do not appear in any NA groups except the inuit or the Kor-subtracted Japanese (IOW no specific patterns entered japan except via korea).

    Therefore the caucasian elements in NA appear to represent the phenotypes of people who lived in southern france and middle east >20 kya by my estimation and the 'classic' caucasian features have yet to develope. This I think explains kenniwick man's features to a major degree with austonesion input as a result of in-situ or west pacific rim admixture explaining the rest.

    The nordification of eastern europe. This shift in phenotypes is largely the result of recent population migrations, as early as the 4th century B.C. there is evidence that the old-norse were on the move, there are claims that people from islands in the baltic sea who were of unknown origin were venturing into central and eastern europe, the romans generically called these people the barbarians of the north, whereas the nomads of the time by greek standards, the scythians were probably of some celtic derivation, it could be that even this group was the result of geneflow from scandinavia into the eastern europe. By the 9th century the norse appear to have established trading into eastern europe and the slavic peoples are likely an admixed. This process probably affects our view of europe, whereas if one were very careful to dissect europes populations being very careful to look at specific groups in places like austria, switzerland, iberia, basque, southern france, poland, czech who by genetic analysis have HLA patterns that are more nodal than the general population I bet one could probably construct a slightly different more asian looking population of europe 3000 years ago. What many people think, by appearances, are peoples who invaded from asia are actually the original inhabitants, just like people thought the basque were from elsewhere, and the people who look to use like stereotypical europeans are more or less expansion products from a few locals. This holds also true for ural mountains and other places, these claims of people who came from east asia in europe are not substantial by genetics, sorry to say, and I have looked heavily for evidence there of. Quite the opposite is true, the earliest immigrants to east asia appear to either have trickled into the new world and been diluted, been diluted in east asia or have been pushed to the extremes of and isolated bits and peices of indochina. I can for example find almost pure extracts of european groups that appear to have come from western africa, with a little dilution from eastern european groups. There are claims for instance that the sardinians have a specific and unique origin from a north or west african people. There are direct ties from the berbers to the iberians to the irish and cornish, and while the irish and cornish have more dilute west african patterns, those patterns are still substantial.
    Last edited by Scoob; Saturday, February 21st, 2004 at 09:19 AM.
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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    Very speculative...
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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    Here's some new genetic info. It can be found on groups.google.com on the usenet forum sci.anthropology - under postings by Philip (or Phillip?) Deitiker. I've included message ID's so you can find the posts yourself.
    How do you know this guy is really a scientist? Has he published anything in any scientific journals?

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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    Quote Originally Posted by Vetinari
    How do you know this guy is really a scientist? Has he published anything in any scientific journals?
    I dunno, but you could look it up.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    so, what would you say this says about those genetic tests? The ones that test for ancestry?
    mtDNA - H_7_a (ftDNA) H_7_a_1 (23andme)
    AbDNA - 100% Eur. 23andme: 99.99% Eur., .01% Af.
    23andme: 99.73% European, .27% African
    23andme V3 update awaiting use, got a kit for mom too.

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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    Quote Originally Posted by Elistariel
    so, what would you say this says about those genetic tests? The ones that test for ancestry?
    In general, I would say that they are certainly useful for comparing to other living humans to see if their is kinship. And to obtain a haplogroup, although there seem to be many instances when the haplogroup cannot be determined. However, I was very lucky in that my haplotype determined by FTDNA seems to be relatively unique and produces some very specific geographic locations when used with the YSTR.org database and other data. Seems to appear around Basque country in Spain, the South American community of Basques in Columbia, South America, around Dalarna in Sweden, and Croatia. My bet also that it would appear in the Canary Islands.

    Anyway, for me it was worth the money.

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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    who did you order yours from? I've been wanting one. I'm literally missing half my genealogy on both sides. I want to get the auto-one (both parents) and mtdna.
    mtDNA - H_7_a (ftDNA) H_7_a_1 (23andme)
    AbDNA - 100% Eur. 23andme: 99.99% Eur., .01% Af.
    23andme: 99.73% European, .27% African
    23andme V3 update awaiting use, got a kit for mom too.

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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    Quote Originally Posted by Elistariel
    who did you order yours from? I've been wanting one. I'm literally missing half my genealogy on both sides. I want to get the auto-one (both parents) and mtdna.
    I obtained my test from Family Tree DNA but there are a number of other firms ...DNA Heritage, Oxford Ancestors, Relative Genetics, Gene Tree...and maybe some others.

    Takes about six weeks.

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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    So, let me see if I have this, a small, isolated population in extreme Western Europe expanded after the last glacial maximum. They pushed to the south and east. This flow from west to east and the south has continued to at least Roman times. There was a pocket in the Basques and related Cornish people who were also isolated during the glaciation but did not contribute so heavily to modern Europeans. Movement to the east by these most-European-looking Irish-Nordics may be responsible for the differences in far East Asia between those that have this ancestry (Han) and those that do not (Mongols).

    This is all very interesting and it does have the feel of a researcher (possibly a German) who actually does this research. More would be nicer.

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    Post Re: Very interesting genetic info

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    So, let me see if I have this, a small, isolated population in extreme Western Europe expanded after the last glacial maximum. They pushed to the south and east. This flow from west to east and the south has continued to at least Roman times. There was a pocket in the Basques and related Cornish people who were also isolated during the glaciation but did not contribute so heavily to modern Europeans. Movement to the east by these most-European-looking Irish-Nordics may be responsible for the differences in far East Asia between those that have this ancestry (Han) and those that do not (Mongols).

    This is all very interesting and it does have the feel of a researcher (possibly a German) who actually does this research. More would be nicer.
    Check the links on my post. Also, if you go to groups.google.com and do a search for Deitiker on sci.anthropology (it's a Usenet group), he posted a bunch of stuff, and maybe some more recent stuff.

    About Irish/Norse, what you say sounds generally like what Deitiker says. He says this Irish/Norse ancestry is what makes European people look "white." I think Irish preserve this type best genetically (Deitiker's data doesn't address physical type, but we can guess).

    He also says that there were some (separate) people from France/Germany that migrated to Northeast Asia (slowly, mixing along the way, and taking about 1000 years) - these were not too related to modern French/Germans - they got pushed out by the new cold glacial climate in the area. And their descendents that arrived in NE Asia crossed the Bering Strait to the Americas, bringing their genes.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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