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Thread: The Turning Cross's Direction of Spin?

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    The Turning Cross's Direction of Spin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drömmarnas Stig View Post
    Hmm, when I think about it, I see a lot of clock-wise (like the nationalsocialist one) swastikas
    Isn't that a myth? Surely the Turning Cross can go any direction. Even the NS one is anticlockwise from inside the flag.

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: The Negro Diaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Pervitinist View Post


    And another question: In what direction does the "standard" Swastika "turn"? clockwise or counterclockwise? (And isn't that up to one's imagination anyway?)
    No expert on the Swastika am I, but as it represents the "Sun Wheel" I would imagine if considered objectively it should turn anti-clockwise i.e East to West as a wheel rolling across the sky from east to west.

    Having said that, if considered subjectively, it could also depend on whether one was viewing the sun from the northern latitudes or from the southern... from the northern hemisphere a clockwise rotation might be more correct, as, looking towards the south the sun appears to move accross the sky from left to right, i.e clockwise.

    Not much of an answer for you I'm afraid.. sorry.

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    Re: The Negro Diaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Pervitinist View Post
    No, it's not really a myth, but in fact both Swastikas (Hindu + NS) face in the same direction. When I was in India, I had endless discussions with Hindus about the NS and the Hindu Swastika. They always pretended that the Hindu Swastika faced in the opposite direction. But this is simply sheer nonsense.
    You have to congratulate the propagandists who dreamt this up. I've even heard it in history lessons at school!
    Can nobody save this poor child from such a Hate Crime?!?
    The old Germanics on the other hand, like the Buddhists, don't seem to have cared much about the direction of the Swastika:
    The Celts, Italics and Hellenes too.
    What I don't know however is, whether Hindus see the tilted Swastika (like in the official NS flag) as a sign of bad luck or something:
    Perhaps one of the Hindus here knows the significance of this? For Hitler it was only a matter of aesthetics insofar as the tilted version looks more dynamic than the non-tilted one.
    Interesting question. I agree with Hitler.
    Those Hindus have been sat on their bums in the tropics too long, and have invented all sorts of nonsense...
    And another question: In what direction does the "standard" Swastika "turn"? clockwise or counterclockwise? (And isn't that up to one's imagination anyway?)
    I like to imagine the Hooks turning as though they cut into something, not as mere flags that drag behind the spokes.
    PS @Drömmarnas... Sorry for going off topic once again, but your Negro Diaries are just so inspiring. Definitely one of my favourite threads on Skadi!
    I'll separate a few things from it in a sec!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    No expert on the Swastika am I, but as it represents the "Sun Wheel" I would imagine if considered objectively it should turn anti-clockwise i.e East to West as a wheel rolling across the sky from east to west.

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    Re: The Turning Cross's direction of spin?

    Think in terms of cyclical time, ellipses, orbits, centres of gravity, weight, and rotational axis:

    Ellipses:







    Orbits:





    Where one places the Sun Wisp, determines a prograde or retrograde motion.

    Science and Mathematics actually serves as the (agnate) metaphor, in this example.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Re: The Turning Cross's direction of spin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suut View Post
    Think in terms of cyclical time, ellipses, orbits, centres of gravity, weight, and rotational axis:

    Ellipses:







    Orbits:





    Where one places the Sun Wisp, determines a prograde or retrograde motion.


    Science and Mathematics actually serves as the (agnate) metaphor, in this example.
    The Hakenkreuz spectrum of meaning is centered around power, energy, and migration. It is closely associated with and , thus with tribal migrations.

    From the Sanskrit swastika: "conducive to well-being." In India, a distinction is made between the right-hand swastika which moves in a clockwise direction and the left-hand swastika (more correctly called sauswatika/sauwistika), which moves in a counterclockwise direction. The right hand swastika is a solar symbol and imitates in the rotation of its arms the course of the Sun, which in the Northern hemisphere appears to pass from east then south to west.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pervitinist View Post
    What I don't know however is, whether Hindus see the tilted Swastika (like in the official NS flag) as a sign of bad luck or something:

    Perhaps one of the Hindus here knows the significance of this?
    Pervitinist, Hindu Swastika is always clockwise, though some people unwittingly may use the anticlockwise direction (others would notice it with disgust). However, Hindus have no problem with a angled Swastika.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Can nobody save this poor child from such a Hate Crime?!?
    What hate crime are you talking about. Swastika is for welfare of the whole world. That is why we say 'Shanti' three times at the end of prayers (Peace to you, Peace to me, and Peace to the whole world).

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    Re: The Turning Cross's direction of spin?

    The swastika is a sun sign. But it is a Black Sun sign, just an abbreviated one. Its "spin" represents a vortex. In fact, this is a double, Schaubergian vortex. It is like two tornados, one on top of the other, joining at their narrowest points. The spinning motion increases until the narrowest point at the bottom is reached. At this point, it joins with the other "tornado", spinning in the other direction. Where these two tornados meet--for one instant--motion stops. The angular momentum is released which is an energy release. Then motion is resumed in the opposite direction but it is now expanding rather than contraction (implosion/centripital to explosion/centrifugal) force.

    The point is if you look down from the top, it spins one way and if you look up from the bottom, it spins another way but both are part of the same process--implosion/explosion, centripital/centrifugal, growth/decay, life/death, energy accumulation/energy dissapation---however you want to view this. A black hole works exactly the same way but using all the processes of Physics/Chemistry/(mechanics) at the exact same instant and using known and unknown forces. This is the meaning of the swastika's spin.

    The Nazis knew all this and so the direction on Hitler's swastika is an effort to represent the implosive/centripital/gathering/growth/life side of this duality.

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    Re: The Turning Cross's direction of spin?

    First off, it’s a purely spiritual post, and the way I have realised it by personal experience, discussion and intuition. It is well known that I keep politics and religion strictly separate, but some idiots will still assume this was not the case, so I decided that a little reminder couldn’t hurt, especially when it deals with a sign used both politically and religiously in the past. Anyway, let’s get down to the point.

    What does the Swastika represent to me personally? Well, in some sense it represents time and its progression to me. Oh, and a lot of numerology involved in it too

    I think it is great that Suut brought up the point of time, more specifically cyclical time. Which is exactly what the swastika, amongst other things, represents.

    However he is somewhat incorrect. Time is not linear, not cyclical, but probably helical:

    -On one hand, you have the recurrence of seasons and other patterns of life - that circle of birth-life-death-rebirth, that can be found within all ideas...well depending on whether you believe in reincarnation: Taking the idea from nature as we observe it, and applying it to ourselves, it is however a FACT, one way or another.

    -On the other hand, you have a steady progression of past-present-future. Think of a story. Stories are purely linear, and what has been done in the past may be important in the present and will ultimately have a bearing on the future. Look at your genealogy tree: it is linear. History: it is linear, etc. etc.

    So you consider these both, and you have the seasons of a year. They recur again and again, but it will always be a different cycle of it - the bast will have a bearing on it. So rather than having the linear idea (ABCDEF) or the cyclical idea (ABCDEFABCDEF) you have the helical idea (A1-B1-C1-D1-E1-F1-A2-B2-C2-D2-E2-F2).

    So how does this link up to the swastika? Well, in my opinion it does quite well. One one hand it seems to always be spinning in a circle, it will always be turning and seamingly reaching the same position. On the other hand, it is always moving and always moving on. It reaches the same position again, but it is the first full turn, the second full turn, the third full turn, etc. etc.

    Another point I find important about the swastika is that it has four arms. 4 is an important number: You have four seasons (spring-summer-autumn-winter), linking up with the four mythological ages ( gold-silver-copper-iron [correct me for the names if I am wrong]): The partitions of time as you will.

    You then have the “alternative”, which is the Black Sun – often seen as an occult idea installed by Himmler & Co. , but I certainly see an idea behind it – it has of arms 12.

    12 itself is of course also an important number: 12 days of difference between the sun year and the moon year. 12 days of Yule. 12 months. 12 Aesir gathered in Lokasenna. 12 is half of 24, which is the number of runes in the Elder Futhark.

    Now, more significant to me is the fact that 12 is a product of the number 4 (just explained and the number three, which is quite an interesting one:

    -Life, Death, Rebirth
    -Odin, Vili, Ve.
    -Odin, Hoenir, Lodur.
    -Urd’s Well, Mimir’s Well, Hvergelmere
    -Sky, earth, sea
    -Past, present, future
    -Mother, father, child
    -Faith, Folk, Family
    -Three Aettir of the Futhark
    -Youth, Adulthood, Age
    -Earl, Jarl, Thrall
    -Sword-death, sea-death, straw-death

    List could go on…

    How incomplete would any of these be with one of them missing? Probably quite so.

    Then you have the number nine, which is of course 3x3, having a even higher level of completeness:

    -Nine worlds grouped into 3x3 on Yggdrasil on which Odin hung 9 days and 9 nights

    Asgard-Alfheim-Vanaheim
    Midgard-Jotunheim-Svartalfheim
    Hel-Niflheim-Muspelheim

    -The Valknut: Three triangles interwoven. (3x3 = 9)

    -Nine noble virtues, nine charges.

    -Nine aspects to the “soul”:
    Lík/Lyke
    Hamr
    Ódhr
    Önd
    Hugr
    Minni/Myne
    Sál
    Fetch/Fylgia
    Hamingja

    -Three and nine are the only numbers where multiples of the number have a sum-across of 3, 9 or the multiples thereof.

    So you have this powerful number 3, which links the aspects of life to the 4, the seasons and ages; and you multiply them and you are at 12, whose significance we have already explained. Which makes the Black Sun IMO a potentially very potent symbol; an inference I do not wish to make, but any twelve-armed swastika would eventually be a symbol encapsulating life quite definitely as to my observation.

    Next, we shall deal with the turning direction, since it is obviously turning. I would not say that ultimately there is a right way of turning; however it would make more sense to me, logically, to be rolling clockwise:

    -mirrors the daily progression of the sun.
    -has the impression of moving forward rather than backward
    -faces towards the right, which is considered the nobler side: It is better to sit at the right side of the host; the right hand is a measure of greeting in whatever way it may be used; the dexter side of a shield is considered purer than the sinister side, etc. etc.
    -the way that the clock turns is obviously the way that time will turn – be it as a matter of seasons or a matter of ages.
    -The fact that it seems to be expanding rather than contracting gives also a more positive impression to me, one of a growing helix of time rather than a shrinking one...looks much more powerful "clock-wise" facing.

    Last but not least, I will come to speak of the tilted swastika as Pervitinist suggested. I am not aware of any references, however I am proved by archeology that it was used way before 1933:

    Prehistoric Swastika came in all forms and shapes. Even the tilted one existed. Compare this 6th century brooch found in Norfolk, England:



    Well, and in the end I finally hope that any of this made any sense. I know it wasn't all 100% on the complete topic, and went a bit off-road, but well, in the end of the day, something was probably to be learnt.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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