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Thread: Graphic: China's Rise

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    Post Graphic: China's Rise


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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    I would with the Chinese folk just the best and I admire in some aspects their politic, but the problem is that parts of the Chinese success are just possible with the destruction or at least damage of the Euro-Atlantic social and economic system.

    This is true especially if the West keeps up his neoliberal socio-economic and free trade policy.

    But I think, its a really a great achievement to do what the Chinese do at the moment and in such a short time.
    They have a big social problem on their own, but if you compare China with India or Indonesia you really see the difference.

    We can learn from China, at least much more than from USrael.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    You're right. But simply saying stop to liberalism is not the option, in my opinion, at least. Because this would mean the built of walls around the Euro-Atlantic area which will accelerate its end. Not by closing ourselves to the outside world, we will win. Perhaps we should ask ourselves what does China have to be able to succeed? I think I know the answer: UNITY, SOLIDARITY, which is not at all the case in Europe. Look at the current Europe, for the smallest thing we are capable of jumping to one another throats. This is not the spirit. We must be capable to something together and to leave aside vanity.

    Marius

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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    The problem is that the social and ecological standards, the real income and the life costs are something very different in the West and in China.

    The difference is made even bigger because China controlls the currency and the import/export more than the West.

    In a free trade you can NEVER compete with a state under this circumstances if its about human labour.

    This leads to the fact that the social standards and communities of the West will be hurt, but in the end the standards worldwide will be not that much better.

    The solution must be an European collective society which controlls and supports their own economical sector without blocking the world trade.
    Thats possible and doesnt mean to build walls, at least none which are not really necessary.
    Penalties and protection in form of customs/taxes for foreign products from states which dont execute certain things if its about social and ecological standards because this is nothing else than a form of a unfair competition in which in the end only the global capital will win and the plutocrats.

    Their must be international standards for the protection of the Western markets and for the needs of the species and ecosystem.

    The problem is furthermore that the speculants and plutocrats invest in the cheapest regions with often the worst standards and so they evade what they would have had to do in the old industrialized regions.

    But in the end there is not more production, but just in other regions and with lower standards, thats no progression for anybody, for sure not for the Europeans.
    Free trade in that form and with that rules (GATT, GATTs, G8 policy) is not good for anybody but for a few which betray their folks and mankind.

    China should get its chance for prosperity, but not at the cost of worldwide destruction of social standards because it makes up dumping prizes for everything.

    The whole thing must be lead like many things in useful ways for the Europeans in a collective sence and the future of all mankind.

    Liberalism must be stopped at all, because you will see if absolut liberalism will succeed in China you will see how even this land will win and win, but than it will lose with a big bang...
    Liberalism leads on the long run to nothing because its the just the best way for a few and for no collective ON THE LONG RUN!
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    You're right with a necesssary imposing of different types of standards on products and production, based on the current European and American ones. It would be nice. But just think what happened in Moscow now: a roof of a pool went down because it was bad built. But this bad conception had a smaller price as it happens with many products which come from Turkey or China.

    The problem I rise is that the middle basic European won't think at big things and he will buy the cheapest, even if it is not of a good quality. To avoid this, you must do an education of basic people. And as well, a rigurous control of merchandises being imported or of companies in the Western Europe and USA areas. But this is already done, but starts to fail.

    In my opinion, these are the two points which need improvement: first, the education of people and second, rigurous control.

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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    The problem is that the people often think they have not too much choice if they just buy cheaper products.

    Ordinary people can and never will be that rigorous, never!

    Especially not if they same people which invests in this low-standard and low-life-cost countries pay less wage for the same jobs and cut good jobs in the Western country.

    They dont even have the money to decide if they still want to have the basic things to which they are used now!

    If you want to change that, state, the collective must get active, its not about every single person and just education like it is liberal argumentation.
    I dont think that would be enough.

    But you are absolutely right, the catastrophy in Russia is a very good example and metapher for the whole system and what goes in the wrong direction.
    Corruption and price-dumping must lead to more and more personal and collective failures.

    Control is necessary and the promoting of worldwide standards on the long run too.
    The funny thing is just that oftentimes especially USrael is blocking such attempts...
    Well, the plutocrats just know where there interests are...
    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, February 17th, 2004 at 05:08 PM.
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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    >The problem is that the people often think they have not too much choice if >they just buy cheaper products.
    >Ordinary people can and never will be that rigorous, never!

    It is a real thing.


    >Especially not if they same people which invests in this low-standard and >low-life-cost countries pay less wage for the same jobs and cut good jobs in >the Western country.

    Personnally, I agree at this point. But, in the mean time, I do not agree to the idea that it should be high-lifed, high-cost countries and low-life, low-cost countries and they always should remain the same. I can give the example of communism which destroyed the economies of Eastern European countries, which now strive to get up. It's difficult, but without the Marshall plan, I would kindly remember to the Western Europe, that they would not have been what they are now. If the Americans, at that time would have thought in these terms of low-cost, low-life, ... Western Europe and the whole Europe would have compete with African countries concerning poverty.


    >They dont even have the money to decide if they still want to have the >basic things to which they are used now!

    Wrong impression, sorry. Not having money does not automatically imply studipity, cupidity and mental disorders. Getting further into detail here, perhaps there are countries which would have difficulties to evolve because of some current social or religious or economic reality. Remember that on the lands of actual Ethiopia, one of the poorest country in the world, there were pyramids built before the Egyptian ones. I think I do not have to remember that our whole Europe, at that time, concerning its population, was at the pure savage level.


    >If you want to change that, state, the collective must get active, its not
    >about every single person and just education like it is liberal argumentation.
    >I dont think that would be enough.

    I think the collectivity cannot get active, unless there is an education at personal level.


    >But you are absolutely right, the catastrophy in Russia is a very good >example and metapher for the whole system and what goes in the wrong >direction.
    >Corruption and price-dumping must lead to more and more personal and >collective failures.

    >Control is necessary and the promoting of worldwide standards on the long >run too.
    >The funny thing is just that oftentimes especially USrael is blocking such >attempts...
    >Well, the plutocrats just know where there interests are...[/QUOTE]

    Agree to this.

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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    Quote Originally Posted by marius
    Personnally, I agree at this point. But, in the mean time, I do not agree to the idea that it should be high-lifed, high-cost countries and low-life, low-cost countries and they always should remain the same.
    Well, my country, my collective and my race have some priority, thats just logical and doesnt have to mean I want that the situation remains the same forever.

    It just means that it is better for my collective AND whole mankind if the development goes just in one direction: Better standards.

    If a tendency just destroys standards in Europe without making better ones in the rest of the world I see no progression but just a problem for the European nations.


    I can give the example of communism which destroyed the economies of Eastern European countries, which now strive to get up.

    The problem is that without Communism many Eastern European countries especially Romania wouldnt be in a much better situation, but maybe still agrarian and analphabetic.
    The problem was not the start of Communism but the mistakes mainly made later, at least if you look at the economic development.



    It's difficult, but without the Marshall plan, I would kindly remember to the Western Europe, that they would not have been what they are now. If the Americans, at that time would have thought in these terms of low-cost, low-life, ... Western Europe and the whole Europe would have compete with African countries concerning poverty.

    No, they would have just need more time to get on their feets again, thats all.

    And of course without the Anglo-American war against Germany Europe would have never been in this situation.

    Germany had the production standards of 1939 in the 50s again, in the time of the "Wirtschaftswunder"...
    The main difference was they produced now just consumption goods.

    The development was often overestimated because of the propaganda effect and the idea that "prosperity came with democracy".

    The only thing Germany had not before the war were ressources, with enough ressources it was already in 1939 a perfect machine.

    That Africa is in the situation it is has more to do with the structures, the system and the abilities of the people (no matter if environmental or genetic factors are responsible - its just like that at the moment) etc...


    Wrong impression, sorry. Not having money does not automatically imply studipity, cupidity and mental disorders. Getting further into detail here, perhaps there are countries which would have difficulties to evolve because of some current social or religious or economic reality.
    I never said poor people must be dumber, at least not that dumb, but its a fact that ordinary people in such structures have neither the will or the possibiliy to decide properly even if they divine the real background of many problems.


    Remember that on the lands of actual Ethiopia, one of the poorest country in the world, there were pyramids built before the Egyptian ones. I think I do not have to remember that our whole Europe, at that time, concerning its population, was at the pure savage level.

    Thats just not true but it would go to far to discuss about that.

    Of course I consider Aethiopids as having more potential than pure Negroids and they are at least able to make a more or less "modern" and "prosperous" state if the conditions are "ok".
    Thats right.
    But what remains is there land and its conditions and the structural problems.
    .

    I think the collectivity cannot get active, unless there is an education at personal level.

    The collective can get active with good leaders at any time. But its true that it would be even more effective if both is made ready, the leadership and the mass with education at the personal level like you said.

    One thing we should make clear, GATT and GATS were/are catastrophies for the West and the whole world and there is no way to say this treaties are in THE WAY THEY ARE MADE good for anything but the plutocracy.

    Maybe some hundred or thousands of Plutocrats overseas get into a new worldwide upperclass, but for the masses its bad worldwide IN THAT FORM and for Europe and North America its an absolute catastrophy.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    I agree to you in the most areas, but this is a thing which personally offends me:

    >The problem is that without Communism many Eastern European countries >especially Romania wouldnt be in a much better situation, but maybe still >agrarian and analphabetic.

    I don't know why is Romania the black ship or why some persons hate us so much that always give Romania as a bad example. Yes, I am a Romanian and I am proud to be one. I am proud about Emil Racovita who discovered area around the Sees of the South, in the Southern Emisphere and who baptised areas in Tierra del Fuego (Southern Emisphere, near Antarctica) with names of cities in Romania. I am proud about the industry of the 1920s and 1930s who was able to build train models which were built in Western Europe after 1950s. I am proud with the Oritza machine-gun, stolen by Russians after 1945, I am proud with the plane industry of IAR which made fighters capable to get the Messerschmidts. And I am also proud with the Nobel prize of Pallade concerning some particles in the biological cells, sorry I am no expert to give you details.

    As far as I know, all these disappeared during communism when ALL the intelectuals which refused getting into the Communist Party where arrested, killed, sent to forced work till they died and all civic leaders killed and the other people were brainwashed.

    The parts of Romania were not very high positioned because of their exact geographical position. They had to face three big empires. Why they did not beat all of them and built a big empire of their's? I cannot say, we are not a violent people. But after the 1860s, Romania started to get out of its agrarianism and around 1920s had become an important economic force in the area, comparable with Hungary (an ex-empire) and to Czechoslovakia. Yes, it was not like Germany or like the UK or like France (which was not glamorous either, at that times).

    Sorry for this perhaps too patriotic speech, but I wonder why is this sort of peculiar "rasism" against Romania and Romanians. Once again, I repeat, we have nothing to do with Gypsies, they were brought to be our slaves and they were freed like black people in the US. Can we say that the US is a country of blacks? I think all this ideas against Romania are launched by the Hungarian extremist propaganda, which started early around 1450s with the deformation of Dracula's facts. As you may well know, our majority, our subrace in Romania is Alpine, perhaps with some Dinaric influences, which in my opinion is far from the one of Gypsies, and does not entitle anybody to put an equal sign.

    Sorry for the turnover, the discussion started with China, but this proves something. That really, what happens now in the world bad or good, has a common ground and ideas area: are we able to survive the next millenium?

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    Post Re: Graphic: China's rise

    You know me a little bit and therefore you know that I didnt dislike the Romanians or think they are inferior in any way, and that the problematic Gypsies are something different.

    I know of the problems caused even by the brutal and partly irrational early Communism. But even thinking about that its still true that many parts of the industry and school system worked quite effective in the early and especially middle (60s) Communist times.

    Romania, no matter what qualities it had, was never a leading or even fully industrialized country especially not before 1945.
    That doesnt mean there were no industry or it was a savage country, I know that, but it was no comparable with countries like Germany, France, Netherlands etc.

    It was interesting to read about what Romanians did, and I respect that anyway.

    If we speaking about China again, my opinion is not that China is that bad but its just using the advantages and weaknesses of the liberal-free trade system.
    If this happens in a limited way it would be ok, but so its just a threat for the social and economic system of the West which is already damaged by the Anglo-American Neoliberal attack.

    To fight Liberalism back is the only way to rescue the biological and cultural substance of Europe and saving the minimal social, economic and ecological standards which should be spread all over the world on the long run.

    But I dont think that the liberal system is able to do so, but just a collectivistic system.
    Furthermore its important to develop economic and ideological alternatives to the (neo-)liberal idiocy.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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