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Thread: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

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    Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    Can anyone give me examples and an explanation please?

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    Re: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thruthheim
    Can anyone give me examples and an explanation please?
    Profesor V. Bunak in his work Neues Material zur Ausonderung anthropoligscher Typen unter der Bevölkerung Osteuropas explain the anthropological data about the Baltid race. As he was the first to study seriously this type I think I must reconsider how to classify some types I have classified before according to him. Bassically according to Bunak the Baltic race would be a slightly modified Nordid type, but still Nordid.



    “The two types North-Western Great Russian and High Dnepr (they fit with the so called "subNordic" of Deniker) depending on his pigmentation, stature and cephalic, facial and nasal indexes, as well as for other features they are without doubt more close to the Nordic race that to any other one, and undoubtedly they might be unified in one single group. Both Russian groups are more close among them that each one separately to the Nordic race. For this, I believe that they should be unified in a group with two subgroups. I think that for this type there would be succeeded the denomination “Baltic”("Baltischer")as I proposed in my work of 1924. Both subraces of the "Baltic" race can be named as Valdaic ("Waldaische") sub-race according to Tschepurkowski, which would correspond to the types above described as North-Wester-Great Russian and sub-race High Dnepr (or also sub-race Nord Düna). Together with these two sub-races we must differentiate also other sub-races: the West dünasche(lettische[Letts]), Unter-weichelsche[Under Vistula] ([Prussian - oriental]Ost-preußische). According to the opinion of many anthropologists, the Baltic race and the Nordic race are narrowly related and form two races of one single type that on my idea I would name « Great European race » (In the sense how uses this term Giufridda-Rugieri)”.

    About the West-Baltid race I already post some information here: The West-Baltid race

    Regarding the East-Baltic race the only information I have right now here (I am not at home) is from Günther but probably there is more and better descriptions for sure:

    “The East Baltic race is of about the same, or only a little greater, height as the Alpine race, and, like it, is stocky and broad. The breadth and stockiness is even more pronounced in the East Baltic race than in the Alpine; and there is, furthermore, the certain coarseness of bone which is so characteristic of it. The relatively great breadth of shoulder in the East Baltic race is particularly marked, and gives a coarsening effect. The legs, hands, and feet are short and heavy as in the Alpine race.

    The East Baltic head, too, gives a broad and coarse-boned effect. It is relatively large and heavy, and in particular the face has a massive effect compared with the cranial portion. This is heightened by the characteristic under jaw, which is massive and heavy, and broad, short, and bony in structure, with an unprominent chin. The cephalic index is on the whole somewhat lower than in the Alpine race; this would seem to arise from the fact that while the East Baltic head has an equally remarkable breadth, the back of it is slightly more arched out. The facial index is somewhat higher than in the Alpine race, because while the face has the same remarkable breadth, it is a little higher than in the latter. This is due to the higher under jaw in the East Baltic face, and the greater height of both jaws in the region of the alveoli (tooth-sockets).

    The countenance has a dull cast, as in the Alpine race. It has, however, characteristics of its own: the forehead is not so much arched backwards as set backwards, but at a small angle. The root or upper part of the nose lies even flatter than in the Alpine race, but in its middle and lower parts the East Baltic nose rises on the whole more from the face than the Alpine. The East Baltic nose is bent in, and has a particularly 'ugly' effect in that it is at the same time turned up at the lower part, and lies broader across its opening than is usually seen in the Alpine race. Now and then very short noses are seen in East Baltic men and women.


    The position of the jaws (upper against lower) shows a tendency in the East Baltic race to a forward set, while in the other European races the jaws lie more or less one against the other. The massive, heavy under jaw has an unprominent, blunt chin; its lower outline, and the outline behind, meet more nearly at a right angle than in the other European races. Seen from the front the cheek-bones stand somewhat apart from one another (in a lateral and at the same time forward direction). The front view shows, too, the (according to the general ideas of beauty in Europe) 'ugly' nose, with its nostrils visible from the front and the broad flat-lying cartilage; it shows too, again, the breadth of the under jaw, which, especially in the region of the submaxillary angle, is very considerable. The front view also shows how the jaws are set slightly forward.


    The fleshy parts show fewer deposits of fat than in the Alpine race; the coarseness of the skull bones is not hidden. The wrinkles from the cartilage of the nose towards the corners of the mouth seem often to be rather deep, and meet (apparently oftener in the women) in a Gothic arch rounded at the top, this being due to the fact that they seem to meet on the bridge above the lowest third of the nose. The nose is often markedly uptilted just in the region of the wings.


    The opening between the lids rises a little (more clearly in the woman) towards the outside; it is, as in the Alpine race, narrower and shorter than in the narrow-faced races of Europe, for which reason, too, the East Baltic eye looks small. The distance between the inner corners of the eyes is greater in the East Baltic race than in the other European races; the opening of the mouth looks broader, the lips wider and their line less clear.


    In old age there is a strong tendency to form wrinkles as in the Alpine race.


    The skin is fair, but not rosy; it does not let the blood glimmer through, so that it never looks to have the life or brightness of the Nordic skin. There is always a grey under-tone to the East Baltic skin, which may often be so strong that one would hardly call this skin fair; not seldom it seems to have an 'olive-grey' (Retzius) colouring.


    The hair has a hard, even a stiff, texture. Each hair is (as in the Alpine race) thick. The hair of the beard, too, is stiff; it grows thin, although the individual hairs may grow fairly long. The East Baltic hair is fair, but more inclined to be ash-blond than gold-blond. The golden or reddish undertone of the Nordic race is wanting; in its stead a grey undertone is shown, which may be more, or may be less, decided. Thus the East Baltic hair shows shades from faded blond shot with grey down to more or less dark ash-blond. East Baltic hair might be called ash-blond as against the gold-blond Nordic hair. In childhood both the Nordic and the East Baltic race often show whity-yellow flaxen hair. All over the east of Europe, where the latter race is more strongly represented, red hair is less often found than in North-west Europe, where the Nordic race is more strongly represented.


    The colour of the eyes in the East Baltic race is grey, grey-blue, or blue; blue seems rarer, the blue East Baltic eye being mainly watery blue, or even bluey-white (the 'white-eyed Finns' is a saying). That brightness, or even radiance, which belongs to many Nordic eyes, is lacking in the East Baltic eye. Its expression is often sullen, not seldom it is gloomy, but withal stronger or at least harder than in the Alpine race”.



    I post some examples of more or less typical types (in my opinion) and some intermediate type in between. I add also two interesting types quite interesting to classify: one woman probably East-Baltid/Uralid? and one man maybe East-Baltid/Mongoloid?, both blondes. Hope can help you.


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    Re: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    Quote Originally Posted by visigodo
    Bassically according to Bunak the Baltic race would be a slightly modified Nordid type, but still Nordid.
    I wonder, how exactly does Bunak define Nordids? In the tradition of including Dalo-Falids and other depigmented CMs into the category, and not just gracile leptodolichomorphs (cf. the German anthros)? If that is the case, then I agree with his assessment about "the Baltic race". Baltids would seem to be "slightly modified" depigmented CM's.

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    Re: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    Quote Originally Posted by vingul
    I wonder, how exactly does Bunak define Nordids? In the tradition of including Dalo-Falids and other depigmented CMs into the category, and not just gracile leptodolichomorphs (cf. the German anthros)? If that is the case, then I agree with his assessment about "the Baltic race". Baltids would seem to be "slightly modified" depigmented CM's.
    For Bunak the Baltid and the Nordid race are related and they must be included in the same racial group, which he calls “Great European Race”. In this case and in my opinion, the Baltids would not be depigmented Cromagnids but the descendants of the Indo-Europeans groups (Balts, Slavs, peoples of Fatyonovo's culture etc.) belonging predominantly to the Nordid race and with elements of Dalofaelid (Cromagnid) race aswell and that would be therefore those who would give origin to Bunak's Baltic race. These elements for different motives, mixovariation (mixture with Cromagnids, Finno-Ugrians, etc.) and internal variation (evolutionary direction towards the boralization/alpinization du to especial enviromental and climatic conditions) would have given place to the typical Baltic type, the types that have remained with less changes and that have preserved better the Nordid classic features they would be the East-Nordids. In this respect I am not sure if it could be said that the Baltids are depigmented Cromagnids, (unless we have the opinion that the origin of Nordid race is some kind of gracilized Cromagnid, but this is another history) or as it is said in SNPA “Cromagnids altered through selection” placing theme in the same group together with the Borrebies. On the contrary I think would be good to includethe West-Baltid race in this group. I understand that if Bunak has reason and the Baltid race is related to the Nordid there would be problems in fitting them into the SNPA’s classification since if it is clear that cannot be considered “inaltered Nordids” we have the problem of where to place theme. In the subgroup of the Nordids altered by Nordish admixture (admitting East-Cromagnid admixture) or in the group of the Nordids altered by not Nordish admixture (admitting Finno-Ugrian admixture)? Anyway that is only some some ideas that I have, just want to help if possible. From my side possibly this summer will finish translating Bunak's text into the Spanish and later I will place something in the forum (in English). In this work there is enough photographic material and maps that I am sure will be interesting and I will place something in this forum at the end of August.

    Here you will find some anthropological data, as you will see the most important differences are the cephalic index that that is higher comparing the Baltids with the more classic Nordids (Northern) the less facial index and something less stature.

    Last edited by visigodo; Sunday, May 14th, 2006 at 10:05 PM.
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    AW: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    The problem is, if looking at the origins, that we can see a lot of form, including Nordoids in the pool for Baltisation. But Central were Cromagnoid forms, to which they are closer related. Nordoid was involved too, since we are speaking about a population which was Baltised here, but the Cromagnoid and in Eastbaltid in particular, the Lappoid elements were crucial. We see from the beginning Nordoid, Cromagnoid and Lappoid living side by side in the North East in particular and the Cromagnoid forms never disappeared. Its similar to Southern Germany, even if we see in Germanic Reihengraeber Nordoid variants almost only, this doesnt mean all later forms can be traced back to this form, but rather that most people in that area might have a Nordid component.

    There were for sure surviving older Cromagnoid-Alpinoid and Dinarid forms, its just not possible to link the Reihengraeber directly with later Dinarid and Alpinoid variants, even if considering Dinarisation and Alpinisation, the basic feature combination is out of their, or very limited in their original variation. Similar could be said for Eastern Europe areas in which we see Eastnordid-Corded forms before and Baltids later. That was the re-emergence of former Cromagnoids primarily, altered by the new lifestyle (sedentary farmers, changed climate partly, dependent life, lower selection etc.) - with a weaker or stronger (Eastbaltid) Lappoid influence.

    There is no direct line from Nordid to Baltid, but mainly one going over Cromagnoid and with Nordid admixture being in certain areas and individuals involved. In fact, some Eastbaltids might have an even stronger Nordid component, because they are partly the result (similar to Neodanubian) of more direct North Europid (which includes both Nordid and Cromagnid) mixture with local Lappoids and Mongoloids even.
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    Re: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    Thank you for your comments Agrippa.

    The truth is that for me the problem of the anthropology of the Eastern countries is something very interesting because frankly speaking the majority of the authors that we know from the West are in general not updated in all that has relation to the anthropology of these countries. The works of Coon and Lundman both leave many doubts in many senses. The only possibility of clarifying the racial complexes of the Eastern countries are the works of authors like Bunak, Cheboksarov, Denisova and others. In this respect I think as definition of a certain type, the “Baltic” in strict sense, with the two sub-varieties, according to Bunak, the "North-Western Great Russian" and "High Dnepr", should be considered to be a variant of the Nordid (Northern) race but something altered by admixture (Cromagnid and/or Finno-Ugrian) or for internal variation, or for both motives, giving place to a type that we can think is like a sub-Nordid type, but not in origin purely Cromagnid but descendant from the peoples of predominantly Nordid race (Corded/Battle Axe people, Fatjanovo, early Balanovo groups etc.), because these groups were the most possible ancestors of both Balts and Slavs, which later came up mixing partially with Ugro-Finns? or with the old Kammkeramik people with large crania of at least two varieties, an incipient lappoinoid type, and other wide-faced mesocephal of Upper Palaeolithic appearance (Baltic-Cromagnoids, East-Cromagnids, Proto-Baltics or whatewer we want to call them).

    In this respect I understand that for a correct classification of the Eastern peoples we must have clear that in those elements that have kept purer the inheritance of the Corded/Battle Axe people we would have the East-Nordids. The Nordids (Corded/BA) that had had certain alteration would give the Baltids (“Baltics” of Bunak), the Nordids that have stretched contact with the Pontids they would give the North-Pontids types, those which have preserved better the Cromagnid (UP) features would be the West-Baltids (With several levels, from the most purer Cromangids up to those who have suffered the “Baltisation” process –North/Alpinoids like, more or less depigmented robust Alpinoids etc) then there would be the East-Baltids that would be Cromagnids (UP) altered by Lapponoid admixture. Finnally would be necessary only to talk the Pontids and East-Alpinids etc.

    Just to finish I think that like concept the phenomenon named “Baltisation” seems to me to be correct and is a phenomenon that could have happen certainly in Nordids or in Cromagnids. There is many examples of Nordids with signs of “Baltisation” (Baltids that before I use to classify as Nordids with Baltid admixture) as well as Cromagnids. The problem is that to define properly a certain racial type as it is the Baltid we must be more precise and scientific and here it is where we must extract profit from anthropologist as Bunak otherwise the concept of Baltid race stays as a too arbitrary and inprecise idea and we return to the old Osteuropid concept and probably this is one of the points why the SNPA still they did not finish the work with Baltids and East-Baltids, but I can be wrong in this last point. I suppose vingul will say something about. Anyway from here my best wishes and congratulations to the people who are doing such a nice work with the SNPA. Thanks for your efforts.
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    AW: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    I think to clarify some things it would be necessary to look at non-metrical traits and soft parts too in Baltids. Because though Nordid was for sure present in the process of Baltisation, the main element should have been Cromagnoid since the whole facial morphology of Westbaltids is definitely closer than that of Eastnordids. Even in the Fatjanovo and Balanovo skulls thats clear, they are quite far away from todays typical Baltids, whereas the a infantilised variant of the Cromagnoids which were present too has a different f.e. facial profile, nasal shape etc. everything already closer to Baltid.

    So the starting point of Baltisation seems to be a Cromagnoid base which was altered by Nordid and Lappoid admixture - depending on the degree and exact influence we can distinguish Nordid - Baltid transitions, in my opinion mostly based on mixture finally - even if this mixture was stabilised in various region most likely - and a basic Cromagnid - Lappoid one which is the transition from Cromagnid - Westbaltid - Baltid proper - Eastbaltid - Lappoid.

    Nordids would have needed in every case a strong influence of another variant to develop such traits so relatively fast - even as a population - because from Nordid proper there is no real starting point for Baltisation at all.

    But to clear that up would be a work which we can't do, involving regional typification of large samples in Eastern Europe, archaeological records, sampling non-metrical and genetic traits for comparison. In some Eastbaltids its really easier, because its sometimes obvious that they look just like more or less stabilised local North Europid-Lappid mixtures of Northern Scandinavia finally.
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    Re: AW: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    But to clear that up would be a work which we can't do, involving regional typification of large samples in Eastern Europe, archaeological records, sampling non-metrical and genetic traits for comparison.
    That is the point... and that work have been made by the Eastern anthropologists. I would like to help to clarify that and hope next summer holidays I will do something posting here some good information about the matter. Anyway I would like to post some Eastern types to know what is your opinion (or any other opinion of course) and if you can consider them Baltids or pred. Baltids. Have a look please.
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    Re: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?

    Some more and if you like tell me wich one of them fits better in your idea of Baltid.
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    "With the miscegenation vary as much the form as the essence of the nations".
    ILSE SCHWIDETZKY, Grundzüge der Völkerbiologie.



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    AW: Difference between Baltid/East Baltid/West Baltid?



    She comes close.


    He too.

    Many of the others are finally still rather Eastnordid or even typical Eastnordids. Most are Eastnordid-Baltid or Eastnordid with Baltid admixture.

    Some more Osteuropid (especially Baltid proper) women I found on this dating side to give examples in color:
    http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=64473


    Metrically Baltid but with Nordid traces in the facial features:
    http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=63711

    Dinaroid influence:
    http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=63697

    Quite typical Baltids of reduced character:
    http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=63681


    If looking at these images mostly from Russians, Eastnordid and Baltid dominate with mixtures of different degrees in between being extremely common. Still clearly Eastnordid and clearly Baltid variants can be seen quite often. Eastbaltid, Westbaltid, Eastalpinid and finally other elements (Pontid mostly, Dinarid as well) can be found too in this order.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, May 16th, 2006 at 01:37 AM.
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