View Poll Results: Is human miscegenation unnatural?

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  • Yes, naturally.

    75 54.35%
  • No, of course not.

    40 28.99%
  • Well, the complexity and facticity of everything that exists in reality is of such a nature that no true comprehension of the question and its answer can be gained, least one considers a few essential points which I, for the hoi polloi's convenience, shall briefly touch in the seventy-eight or so paragraphs below-mentioned, namely ...

    18 13.04%
  • No idea. | I'm not sure. | Who cares?

    5 3.62%
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Thread: Is Human Miscegenation Unnatural?

  1. #101
    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Regarding Polygamy: I think it is irrational to desire a failure of a man who will love you completely than to share a wealthy, smart successful man. The wealthy man can provide for you (even if you must share) far more than the poor one.

    I would take the love of my good women over any amount of money.

    I may be poor, and I may be uneducated compared to most on this site, but I sure as hell will, and do, provide for my family.

    I pity other parents when I see their children go spastic over not being given something they have asked for.
    They are spoilt and should be given more love and attention rather than toys and distracting presents.

    My daughter is wonderful. She asks for something and I have to say "no", god bless her, she replies, "we get it next time, then? When you have money?" -- "Of course I will baby. "

    Love is greater than any material wealth. Perhaps we wouldn't be in this state if the majority woke up and shook off their evil materialistic values and concentrated on their most precious of possessions. Family!
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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  2. #102
    Schimmelreiter
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    Genetic drift is desirable, especially if we can drive it all the way to speciation. The processes that generate genetic variety and destroy disadvantageous genotypes will continue to function. We just have to make sure that the latter process aligns with our goals by defining what is advantageous and what is not.

  3. #103
    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Why do I keep reading this sort of thing on the net lately? It sounds like the worst pseudoscience babble to me. Even the English alone are a huge enough group to carry on to infinity with absolute endogamy without any disadvantage! What on Earth could happen to us if we didn't do what you recommend here? Are we all going to become sickly and fade out of existence? Of course not! We are MILLIONS! There is more than enough variety and potential even in one town to suffice. I repeat; what is the actual nature of this amorphous danger facing us if we ignore this argument you make?
    Firstly we are talking about a necessary trickle. Many generations could go by with absolutely no outside blood. When outside blood comes in it would be less than %1 of the population. On such a small scale it wouldn't be noticable to the typical person. Though the smaller the population you are dealing with the greater the need for outside input. You wouldn't be "safe" until your population was the majority of the people in the world, then maybe you could almost turn the spicket off and remain competitive.

    Well this has happened historically. The aboriginees of Australia were roughly the same as all other humans when they arrived. They were a small isolated group. They never evolved with the rest of humanity. It wasn't that they had retarded children because of inbreeding, it's that they never got any influx of new mutations in the larger population that was beneficial. This has been shown with every isolated group of human beings in the world. Have we ever gone to some remote isolated tribe on top of a mountain and been amazed at how advanced their civilization was? No they are usually living in the stone ages. Maybe some of this has to do with things outside of genetics, but there certainly does seem to be a genetic factor as well.

    This also relates to immunity to disease. Native Americans. Why were they nearly destroyed by the "white man's" disease? Because they were a mostly isolated genetic population and never recieved the inflow of beneficial immunity mutations.

    Or we can take royalty. Europe- Many families in the middle ages and such who started out "superior" eventually died out. The inbreeding weakened them. Similar with the Egyptian pharos. It can hold out for a long time. Maybe thousands of years but at some point it will lead to failure if the population is too isolated genetically.

    A folks blood- a people, a species will filter out undesirable traits and retain what is desirable if there is only a small amount of mixing. If you think about it a racially mixed person can have children that conform to the community and do not appear foreign but may have a few desirable traits. Though you could not have a culture of blind tolerance, but need a natural human culture of standards and necessary conformity. This is basically elementary genetics but most people I talk to don't understand it even if I explain it.

    Geneticists are actually doing such with American Chest-Nut trees. In case you need an example. There are two different races of chest-nut, well actually several. The American tree is very large and tall. Different leaves, different chest-nuts etc. The Chinese is very short and bushy and different leaves and chestnut. The Chinese chestnut when brought to America had a disease that has destroyed the American chestnut tree, nearly bringing it to extinction. Geneticists have cross the American and the Chinese Chestnut. Then they expose the babies to the virus. The survivors are then crossed with an American, again every generation exposed to the chestnut virus. After a few generations they start taking out the trees that have chinese characteristics. By the time they have a 1/16 Chinese and 15/16 American tree they have created a tree that indistinguishable from the American Chestnut, but also has the immunity to the disease and thus may survive.

    A culture; a folks community would similarly mold people towards a certain ideal racial character, but certain genes would need to flow in. You can't have any race without a community that encourages a certain "ideal" therefore I don't think anyone on these forums that I know of really have a stable race. I think these fundamental concepts should be understood by everyone with an interest in race.

    You should know that the next generation of English will not be exactly the same as this generation. If there is no culture or no collective will of the people to prefer one type of person more than another (or some outside selective force) then there will be no race. Race is created more by the culture and people than by simply "pure" breeding. For example a community that took in small amounts of outsiders but selectively bred for highlly "Aryan" or "Nordic" features would appear more Nordic in 1,000 years than a group of people who already look highly Nordic but simply inbreed with each other. Mutations would mean variation would increase for the inbred group and they would start to look more different. The smaller the population the more exagurated this becomes. So again if you were a forward thinking racialist you would form a community and agree on a common culture and a set standard (or range) of appearances etc. If you really want to become an expert on such read up on dog pedigrees. Essentially to maintain a "breed" of human would be exactly the same as with dogs.



    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n..._chestnut.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

  4. #104
    Schimmelreiter
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    This has been shown with every isolated group of human beings in the world. Have we ever gone to some remote isolated tribe on top of a mountain and been amazed at how advanced their civilization was? No they are usually living in the stone ages. Maybe some of this has to do with things outside of genetics, but there certainly does seem to be a genetic factor as well.
    What isolated groups lack is not just foreign gene input, but also foreign competition. Even if we achieve genetic isolation, we would still have to compete and be molded by this pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    This also relates to immunity to disease. Native Americans. Why were they nearly destroyed by the "white man's" disease? Because they were a mostly isolated genetic population and never recieved the inflow of beneficial immunity mutations.
    Europeans were continuously exposed to diseases from all over the Eurasian land mass and had ample opportunity to build up resistances themselves. I believe this is another misattribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Or we can take royalty. Europe- Many families in the middle ages and such who started out "superior" eventually died out. The inbreeding weakened them. Similar with the Egyptian pharos. It can hold out for a long time. Maybe thousands of years but at some point it will lead to failure if the population is too isolated genetically.
    This is a problem with small populations and does not really apply, unless you intend to form a small community and breed like dogs. You would still end up being overwhelmed by the political structure around you, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    A folks blood- a people, a species will filter out undesirable traits and retain what is desirable if there is only a small amount of mixing. If you think about it a racially mixed person can have children that conform to the community and do not appear foreign but may have a few desirable traits. Though you could not have a culture of blind tolerance, but need a natural human culture of standards and necessary conformity. This is basically elementary genetics but most people I talk to don't understand it even if I explain it.
    Sure, but sifting through billions of outsiders in search of valuable traits is not practical and there are things like cultural identities, not just in the superficial and procedural sense, that impede such designs.

  5. #105
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    Who said mixing will make us more intelligent?
    How do we know the Phalid Germanic of the old had an IQ of 180? Society is built on the accomplishments of the past.


    Did Einstein invent the theory of relatively? Yes. But who made it possible? Without the lightbulb, Einstein would not had been able to work in the night. Without society and order, Einstein probably would had died as a young adult in a war or something. And without the farmer, Einstein would be too concerned about finding food to work on some "nonsenical" theory.



    I tend to look at non-Europeans in a very black and white fashion. I see the IQ tests of African Males returning results between 60 and 80, numbers that would get a White Male declared mentally retarded, as hopeless and detrimental to mixing.


    How low is too low? The Spanish went into South America as pure European men, then many abandoned the racial system and some of them such as Boliviar wanted to "create a new race".

    That has worked perfectly, as last I check South America is a continent full of Banana Republics, with the only shreds of civilization resembling Western Europe are located in Southern Brazil and Argentina. Good going Boliviar.

  6. #106
    Schimmelreiter
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    IQ also regresses towards the mean:

    To = T + h2(T*-T) where

    To = predicted offspring phenotype
    T = population mean
    h2 = narrow sense heritability
    T* = midparent value [(Tf + Tm)/2]
    Source: Estimating the offspring phenotype

    I value race mostly as a component in cultural ethnogenesis and I would therefore prefer an approach to eugenics that uses an organic ethnic mass to work with instead of all humanity. A pan-Germanic approach would already be quite a stretch in an European context, but the point of cultural divergence is fairly recent when compared to all of whitehood or all of humanity and the common roots are more readily identifiable and can be appealed to in mutual assimilation processes, both on an individual and collective level, if desired.

  7. #107
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    Bye Klum, you could have passed on your genes to the afterlife but you committed gene suicide, treachery and adultery (which originally meant interracial sex but has been redefined by communists to mean extra marital sex) and your punishment under natural law has been to be trapped in the body of a hideous mongrel freak in the next life. Germania will remember you only as a bad example to shock others.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wodens Day View Post
    and adultery (which originally meant interracial sex but has been redefined by communists to mean extra marital sex)
    If the Communists perverted the "original meaning" of this word, how do you then explain that the use of the word Adultery was used to term extra-marital sexual relations already in times when Communism was not yet formulated?

    It is correct that the term "adultery" comes from Latin adulterare, and it is indeed correct that this means to corrupt, to alter, and essentially "to make other" if translated part by part.

    Since adultery does not necessarily have to include an addition to the bloodline, and it was always capable of being charged even if no child was involved, the corruption cannot be considered one of any addition to the genepool/bloodline.

    As such, it is probably a morally-derived term, perhaps dating back to Canon Law: The "corruption" could be seen as a "Corruption by the devil", basically giving in to the sinful temptation of infidelity.

    Bold attempt, but alas incorrect in terms of legal and socio-cultural history.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  9. #109
    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    Europeans interbred with each other. Therefore being part of a huge population that has only recently branched off from the Eurasian human branch of course they had genetic resistance. Though still the black plague killed at least one fourth of Europe if not half. There were only vague notions of race throughout European history. Mainly the differences we see between Europeans and non-Europeans arose from physical isolation and distance between populations. This barrier is broke down. A modern race, say like Jews is created by the will of the community itself to remain distinct. This entails two seperate things.

    Yes the rules would be different if we were dealing with entire nations that willingly racially isolated themselves (racial states) but they don't exist. Yeah sure the entire nation of britain could be self sustaining if it wanted to, but it isn't. Though even here if there is a desirable mutation that advances humanity the smaller group will usually suffer if it 100% isolates itself. What if there is a new gene that creates better intelligence, physical fitness etc.? It would be beneficial to bring it into a population. This is why typically for a long term sustaining population you want to bring in a trickle of outside blood on occasion if it is fit enough.

    Though race is a relative concept created by the individual and the community based on differences. Therefore one persons concept of mixing is different from anothers. The only way to keep a group "pure" is to have a racial community. In this context, in the modern context yes miscegenation is natural. As even Adolph Hitler said "putting negros into the rhine valley neccessarily leadsd to miscegenation". People typically mate with their neighbors, friends, fellow community members etc. If those people are from a different group, there might be some resistance to it but it wont last long. Though I think there is a certain instinctual will to preserve your own group somewhere within humanity. So yeah there is a balance in the answer yes and no.

    I think it all has to do with community. If I was raised in a community of Alpinish people and they were similar enough to me and that was what I was a part of it then that would be what I seek. If I was raised in a Nordic community similar. There are gradients of traits that exist in people and different groups may be defined by different combinations or sets of traits. So if you think of race in the terms that god put four distinct groups of people on earth or whatever I just dont buy that. It goes against a belief in evolution and variation. I believe humans are inherently tribal and racial but their suroundings define those things. The only reason I have racial beliefs is that through the course of my life the differences between myself and the people around me are so glaringly obvious that I've determined to set myself apart from them and preserve what I am. Most average people are not influenced by this factor and thus will do what they feel is natural among their community. The group influences their decisions. I'd say 98% of racists today are rebels. They are people who defy the group and form their own decisions (unless they were raised in a racist environment or some place it is acceptable and normal). But most average people are not rebels or trend setters or leaders. They go along with the group and that can mean exclusion or inclusion. Though studies show most people are going to mate with people similar to themselves in appearance, attractiveness, intelligence, social statusm, race etc.

    Definition of race: this goes back to a confusion people often have as to what "race" means. They confuse race with ancestory. A race is a living community. Heritage or ancestory involve genes you are born with.

    If you live next door to a black person and you are white, but you both speak the same language, have the same cultural values, are part of the same population, same groups, same everything you are not racially different unless you both make a concious decision to set yourself apart racially into different communities. You both are the same race but from different ancestry. When people say black or white today they really mean physical attributes that come from ancestory not race. Because 1,000 years from now your traits will blend with your neighbors because you are part of the exact same community. There is no race without a racial community. Now if you lived next door to a black person but you are a racialists who attends your own racial church, shops at your own racial stores and doesn't believe in mixing with that person and you also have some of your own cultural values and customs then you truly are a different race.

    This is why the schools were integrated racially. This is why we have multiculturalism etc. and its why people fought so hard against it. Once you mix people together and give them the same culture then their race is pretty much dead. If the blood remains untainted it can be rebuilt from the ashes but inevitably the blood will be mixed as well. This is why we see white youth (and soon to be adults) that talk, dress, walk, and act like non-whites. Even if their blood is 100% pure they are no longer white. Their race is different from their parents.

    An example: if we destroyed France and disbursed all French people and they no longer could gather into exclusive french communities and start to loose their language and such then the french race is dead. Without a french community there are no french people. Only people with french ancestory. People who want to destroy our race want us to be confused about what race really is. It isnt ancestory alone. In this context most white people (and even non-whites) have no race. We have no home. We have been stripped of a part of our humanity and turned into internationalists/multiculturalists. When that white person marries a black person from across the street who goes to the same church as them who was raised with the same values and the same heros, who speaks the same language etc. they are not marrying another race. They are simply marrying someone with more distance genetic relation.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Freigeistige's Avatar
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    Considering language is subjective (being man made and ever-changing), "natural" has many different meanings. In my personal understanding of the word "natural", everything that happens is natural, since it is all a product of natural processes and the actions of natural organisms.

    However, I do not think that miscegenation is beneficial, as every subspecies is a branch on a hypothetical tree, and life continuously splits into smaller and more exclusive groups in an attempt to spawn a better and better organism. If the branches were continuously mixing, then all of the work will be undone.

    However, I suppose even mixing could have its benefits, if by chance the child ends up with only the beneficial traits of both parents, but that is quite a gamble.

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