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Thread: "How We Didn't Win the War ... but the Russians Did"

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    Post Did Russia Win D-Day?

    http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc0408/dday.htm


    Did Russia Win D-Day?

    Sometimes from a vicious anti-Sovieteer comes the truth. This was written by Eric Margolis of Canada.

    If the Soviet Union hadn’t chewed up millions of German soldiers and weapons, D-Day would have failed.

    It’s high time that Russia was accorded recognition, especially during the last June celebrations in France on the occasion of the 60th Anniversary of the invasion of Normandy, France. Most North Americans believe that the US, Canadian and British invasion of Normandy was the decisive stroke of the war. Not so, in my view.

    When the Allies invaded France, most of the war-battered German units they met were undermanned, short of armor, trucks, heavy artillery, almost immobile, and reduced to less that 40% combat effectiveness by previous hard fighting on the Eastern Front.

    Most important, Germany’s once splendid air force was almost extinct. German forces at Normandy had almost no air cover and were pounded by the Allies day and night by thousands of Allied air strikes and bombers. Few of us recall that close to 20,000 innocent French civilians were killed by our bombing raids!

    I am arguing that the German Wehrmacht was not defeated in France, but on the Eastern Front, during the 1941-44. The Red Army destroyed 507 German divisions, 48,000 German tanks and 77,000 German aircraft; 100 divisions of Nazi-allied Romanian, Hungary and Italy; and at least 450,000 Japanese soldiers, 32% of Japan’s total military losses.

    Of Germany’s 10,000,000 casualties in World War II, over 75% came by fighting the Red Army. The German air force lost most of its planes and pilots on the Eastern Front. The gigantic battles on the Eastern Front ground down millions of lives.

    Soviet Union lost over 20,000,000 people besides in the Pacific battles against Japan - they lost close to 1,000,000. D-Day was just a diversionary sideshow to tie down German troops while the Red Army pushed towards Berlin.

    Some people may dispute this, but it is a historical fact that Germany’s military capability was destroyed way before the D-Day ever took place in June of 1944. It is interesting to speculate as to what would have happened to us in the West if Hitler did not invade USSR and if the Allies decided to land in Normandy to face the intact German machine! In my view, the Allies would have been beaten.

    I recently saw a plaque in Italy lauding the liberation from the Germans by the "Italian Allied Forces". Excuse me, but I always remember that Italy was on the German side!

    This makes you wonder as to who was fighting against the Allies? Everyone who fought against Russia, Britain, US and France now seems to have been anti-Nazi, in the Resistance, or vacationing in South America at the time of the Second World War.

    Of course the German Chancellor was at this 60th Anniversary of the invasion of France, all smiles. Maybe we’ll even see a smiling Japanese delegation at Pearl Harbor next year?

    Comment:

    An excellent article from an anti-Sovieteer. He could have brought himself to write and admit that it was Britain, US and French imperialism that were pushing Hitler to invade the USSR in the first place. Also, he could have admitted that after the Western Imperialists saw that the Red Army was on the verge of liberating the whole of Europe right up to the Atlantic Ocean, they were forced finally to open up the Second Front!

    Poor Eric Margolis could not bring himself to admit that the German SS and its Gestapo Secret Service were welcomed with open arms by the USA and sent to holiday in South America (war criminals and all) and then the whole Nazi SS Secret Service’s top echelons were hired and became part of the CIA!


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    Post Re: Did Russia Win D-Day?

    I dont know where you got the idea that Germany lost 10,000,000 casualties.
    But that is not true.
    Just look at this site http://http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html.

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    Post Re: Did Russia Win D-Day?

    This article does state the truth. Infact I read that only 1/6th of the total Wehrmacht was involved in Western Europe, and Northern Africa.

    I hate some ignorants who assume that America did everything during the war, and the Soviets did absolutely nothing, this is complete rubbish! Soviet Armor was recognized to be the 2nd best if not the best!

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    "How We Didn't Win the War ... but the Russians Did"

    Britain and America still insist they defeated the Nazis, in the face of overwhelming evidence that they were minor partners, says Norman Davies.

    “History will be kind to me,” predicted Winston Churchill, “because I intend to write it.” And so it proved. Churchill’s The Second World War, which began to appear in 1948, largely set the agenda for all subsequent presentations of the war years, especially in western countries: Britain stands in the centre of the conflict and her survival paves the way for victory.

    As Churchill has it, Britain’s enemies, the axis powers, provide the sole authors of aggression, of criminal conduct and of undefined “evil”. The tide turns at El Alamein. Britain’s principal allies, the US and the USSR, which Churchill brought together in the grand coalition, provide the twin sources of military muscle that hunt down the fascist beast.

    In Europe the allies of east and west co-operate, overcome their differences and triumph. The spectacular landings of the western armies in Normandy match the huge “Russian” successes on the eastern front. The Reich is crushed. Freedom and democracy prevail and “Europe is liberated”.

    Unfortunately, the truth is more complex.

    The attack on the Third Reich was a joint effort. But it was not a joint effort of two equal parts. The lion’s share of victory in Europe can be awarded only to Stalin’s forces and it is a fantasy to believe that he was fighting for justice and democracy.
    Read more...

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    Re: "How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did"

    I read that at the weekend, great article by a prolific and favourite author of mine.

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    Re: "How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did"

    This is not news to (reformed) WW2 geeks like myself.

    The numbers involved on the Eastern Front really dwarf everything else. The Soviets and Germans bled each other dry.

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    Re: "How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did"

    Agreed...really most of the battles in the East put the battles in the west to shame. Americans make the biggest deal about the 101st airborne holding out 'against all odds' in the Battle of the bulge; however, most people don't realize in actuality it was the second weakest German offensive of the war (next to operationfruhlingswachen i think).

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    Re: "How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did"

    It is interesting that Otto Skorzeny, a man who fought on both fronts, dedicated his book, Meine Kommando Unternehmen, to the common soldiers of both the German and Soviet sides who he said were the real heros of the war. He omitted the Western Allies altogether.

    There is no doubt that on a one to one basis, the German Army was superior. Both the Americans and British (functioning as one unit) and the Soviets, (functioning as another unit) countered this German advantage in different ways. The Soviets countered it using brute force and numerical/material advantage (and the winter) while the Anglo-Americans didn't even try to fight the Germans on a one to one basis. They fought under cover of superior air power and used air power to destroy German rail connections and oil producting facilities. The Anglo-Americans tried and largely succeeded in starving the Germans of energy while the Soviets were expected to donate their blood and guts.

    It is interesting that in almost all areas of war production, the Germans were able to produce weapons of war inspite of air bombardment by the Anglo-Americans by diversification of their centers of production. The problem was transportation to areas where the sub-assembled parts could be assembled into aircraft, tanks, U-boats, etc. Even if this could be done, a secondary problem arose in trying to fuel these weapons.

    Now, with Germany's entire rail system attempting to transport the goods of war and this transport system actually being a very weak, easily destroyed point, how did the Germans have time, space, and fuel to joy-ride Jews all around Europe in relatively comfortable, closed boxcars?

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    Re: "How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did"

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFakeSaxon View Post
    This is not news to (reformed) WW2 geeks like myself.

    The numbers involved on the Eastern Front really dwarf everything else. The Soviets and Germans bled each other dry.
    Just the way Churchill wanted. American and British casualties combined don't even add up to 1 million. The Soviets lost more than 9 times that. The best German and pan-European forces were on the Eastern Front. The dregs of the German army had a holiday in France where they would retreat and surrender from/to Americans and even Canadians en masse.
    Similarly, the Soviet annexation of the Baltic states in 1940 was no mere “strengthening of the defences” or “readjustment of frontiers”. It was a brutal act of depredation that destroyed three sovereign European states
    Who granted those states independence for the first time in their entire existence? The USSR.
    The lion’s share of victory in Europe can be awarded only to Stalin’s forces
    Obviously.
    and it is a fantasy to believe that he was fighting for justice and democracy.
    Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the highest form of democracy and greatest expression of social justice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    They fought under cover of superior air power and used air power to destroy German rail connections and oil producting facilities.
    Don't forget about the destruction of civilian centers like Dresden. The Western allies knew that would fall into the Soviet sphere and they would rather have seen it destroyed than out of their possession. The Americans promised the USSR a large loan along with German reparations - they of course delivered neither. Stalin desperately tried to keep Germany united for numerous reasons such as the awkwardness of exporting a revolution to a part of Germany and missing out on reparations from the Ruhr. Stalin's best lieutenants negotiated and agitated for a united neutral German state but the West had already made up its mind. The American diplomat, George Kennan said the following in 1946:


    "[We must] endeavor to rescue Western zones of Germany by walling them off against Eastern penetration and integrating them into the international pattern of Europe rather than into a united Germany."


    Accomplishing a socialist Germany is absolutely crucial to Marxist-Leninist theory. Even after the revolution, Lenin made it clear the USSR must devote all possible energy towards revolution in Germany, even if it meant sacrificing the Russian Soviet state. The absolute worst outcome was to have a small piece of Germany to build Socialism in, sharing a border with a nation of family+friends that is being jump-started by billions of dollars of American investment that the devastated post-war USSR simply couldn't compete with. Even though the GDR had surpassed the UK in per capita income by 1974 and boasted double the workplace/birth safety of the FRG, it had not been organic revolution. Perhaps it would have been different if Ernst Thaelmann was still alive by the time the war was over...
    Last edited by Cole Nidray; Friday, November 10th, 2006 at 08:21 AM.

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    Re: "How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole Nidray View Post
    Just the way Churchill wanted. American and British casualties combined don't even add up to 1 million. The Soviets lost more than 9 times that. The best German and pan-European forces were on the Eastern Front. The dregs of the German army had a holiday in France where they would retreat and surrender from/to Americans and even Canadians en masse.

    Who granted those states independence for the first time in their entire existence? The USSR.

    Obviously.

    Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the highest form of democracy and greatest expression of social justice.

    Don't forget about the destruction of civilian centers like Dresden. The Western allies knew that would fall into the Soviet sphere and they would rather have seen it destroyed than out of their possession. The Americans promised the USSR a large loan along with German reparations - they of course delivered neither. Stalin desperately tried to keep Germany united for numerous reasons such as the awkwardness of exporting a revolution to a part of Germany and missing out on reparations from the Ruhr. Stalin's best lieutenants negotiated and agitated for a united neutral German state but the West had already made up its mind. The American diplomat, George Kennan said the following in 1946:


    "[We must] endeavor to rescue Western zones of Germany by walling them off against Eastern penetration and integrating them into the international pattern of Europe rather than into a united Germany."


    Accomplishing a socialist Germany is absolutely crucial to Marxist-Leninist theory. Even after the revolution, Lenin made it clear the USSR must devote all possible energy towards revolution in Germany, even if it meant sacrificing the Russian Soviet state. The absolute worst outcome was to have a small piece of Germany to build Socialism in, sharing a border with a nation of family+friends that is being jump-started by billions of dollars of American investment that the devastated post-war USSR simply couldn't compete with. Even though the GDR had surpassed the UK in per capita income by 1974 and boasted double the workplace/birth safety of the FRG, it had not been organic revolution. Perhaps it would have been different if Ernst Thaelmann was still alive by the time the war was over...


    Dear All,

    Soviet Union and its minor allies (US, UK)

    I do not posess the exact figures here, which would involve a larger research project.

    It is a well known fact, however that Germany used its elite divisions almost exclusively on the Eastern Front. Otherwise the "minor allies" could never have established a bridgehead, i.e. 2nd front in Italy and France.

    Also it is typical of Anglo-American (power) mentality to find "allies", who can do the messy and bloody work for them. There are many examples, not only in WW1 and WW2 with "colonial troops", such as Indians, ANZACs, Canadians and South Africans, but also during the wars in the former colonies of North America and Asia. These events stretch back over 350 years and there are many examples, particularly in Central America, for the period after WW2.

    Why do it yourself, if you can find some "mug" dying for your strategies...........

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