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Thread: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!

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    We're nearly all Celts under the skin!

    We're nearly all Celts under the skin

    IAN JOHNSTON SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT



    A MAJOR genetic study of the population of Britain appears to have put an end to the idea of the "Celtic fringe" of Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
    Instead, a research team at Oxford University has found the majority of Britons are Celts descended from Spanish tribes who began arriving about 7,000 years ago.
    Even in England, about 64 per cent of people are descended from these Celts, outnumbering the descendants of Anglo- Saxons by about three to one.
    The proportion of Celts is only slightly higher in Scotland, at 73 per cent. Wales is the most Celtic part of mainland Britain, with 83 per cent.
    Previously it was thought that ancient Britons were Celts who came from central Europe, but the genetic connection to populations in Spain provides a scientific basis for part of the ancient Scots' origin myth.
    The Declaration of Arbroath of 1320, following the War of Independence against England, tells how the Scots arrived in Scotland after they had "dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes".
    Professor Bryan Sykes, a human geneticist at Oxford, said the myth may have been a "residue" in people's memories of the real journey, but added that the majority of people in England were the descendants of the same people who sailed across the Bay of Biscay.
    Prof Sykes divided the population into several groups or clans: Oisin for the Celts; Wodan for Anglo-Saxons and Danish Vikings; Sigurd for Norse Vikings; Eshu for people who share genetic links with people such as the Berbers of North Africa; and Re for a farming people who spread to Europe from the Middle East.
    The study linked the male Y-chromosome to the birthplace of paternal grandfathers to try to establish a historic distribution pattern. Prof Sykes, a member of the Oisin clan, said the Celts had remained predominant in Britain despite waves of further migration.
    "The overlay of Vikings, Saxons and so on is 20 per cent at most. That's even in those parts of England that are nearest to the Continent," he said.
    "The only exception is Orkney and Shetland, where roughly 40 per cent are of Viking ancestry."
    In Scotland, the majority of people are not actually Scots, but Picts. Even in Argyll, the stronghold of the Irish Scots, two-thirds of members of the Oisin clan are Pictish Celts.
    However, according to the study, the Picts, like the Scots, originally came from Spain.
    "If one thinks that the English are genetically different from the Scots, Irish and Welsh, that's entirely wrong," he said.
    "In the 19th century, the idea of Anglo-Saxon superiority was very widespread. At the moment, there is a resurgence of Celtic identity, which had been trampled on. It's very vibrant and obvious at the moment.
    "Basically the cornerstone of Celtic identity is that they are not English. However, to try to base that, as some do, on an idea that is not far beneath the surface that Celtic countries are somehow descended from a race of Celts, which the English are not, is not right. We are all descended from the same people.
    "It should dispel any idea of trying to base what is a cultural identity on a genetic difference, because there really isn't one."


    This article: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1393742006

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    Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Here View Post
    "In the 19th century, the idea of Anglo-Saxon superiority was very widespread. At the moment, there is a resurgence of Celtic identity, which had been trampled on. It's very vibrant and obvious at the moment.
    "Basically the cornerstone of Celtic identity is that they are not English. However, to try to base that, as some do, on an idea that is not far beneath the surface that Celtic countries are somehow descended from a race of Celts, which the English are not, is not right. We are all descended from the same people.
    So..... Oisin seemingly covers a massive variety of Celts!?

    I am dubious... it's still along the lines of denigrating the English as "Celtic half-casts" whereas the other nations are monolithic ethnically.

    Instead, a research team at Oxford University has found the majority of Britons are Celts descended from Spanish tribes who began arriving about 7,000 years ago.
    This is all over the place.

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    AW: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!!

    A MAJOR genetic study of the population of Britain appears to have put an end to the idea of the "Celtic fringe" of Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
    Instead, a research team at Oxford University has found the majority of Britons are Celts descended from Spanish tribes who began arriving about 7,000 years ago.
    Its funny to speak of "Celts" then 7000 years ago...

    Previously it was thought that ancient Britons were Celts who came from central Europe, but the genetic connection to populations in Spain provides a scientific basis for part of the ancient Scots' origin myth.
    Well, most notable anthropologists knew that before, that there was a Western European immigration (compare "Westisch" in the terminology of Günther for Mediterranids) being more important and providing the base rather than a Central European one.

    Professor Bryan Sykes, a human geneticist at Oxford, said the myth may have been a "residue" in people's memories of the real journey, but added that the majority of people in England were the descendants of the same people who sailed across the Bay of Biscay.
    Pure fantasy.

    "If one thinks that the English are genetically different from the Scots, Irish and Welsh, that's entirely wrong," he said.
    Nothing that new neither since a similar mixture of old Atlantic and newer Germanic blood is present in all of them.

    "It should dispel any idea of trying to base what is a cultural identity on a genetic difference, because there really isn't one."
    No big one on the British islands he should add. Welsh being more distant still I'd say and thats what he proves too, whereas Scots and English of today are indeed racially-genetic one people mostly, even though somewhat different proportions - minor differences being present.

    I just wonder whether he can tell the different waves that good apart, since some markers he most likely used are much older than the respective ethnic groups and its interesting to see (again) how contradicting some studies can be, if considering what other geneticits said recently. But also interesting to see how low non-Western/Northern genetic markers seem to be.

    Recently I read something similar about Iceland, Icelanders having especially much of the British blood from women, which seems, at least in certain regions, reasonable, though the numbers seemed very (too?) high as well. Physical anthropologists noted such influences in the past too already. I might post material on that in the future.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Sunday, October 29th, 2006 at 03:05 PM.
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    Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Its funny to speak of "Celts" then 7000 years ago...
    Indeed; no such identity existed at the time.

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    Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!!

    One of these comes out every few months, with a different conclusion depending who writes it. This one was written by a celty type, I can tell:

    "In the 19th century, the idea of Anglo-Saxon superiority was very widespread...."
    ....you get the idea.

    Then there are the ones which just say race is irrelevant, only culture, class and religion matter;

    "It should dispel any idea of trying to base what is a cultural identity on a genetic difference, because there really isn't one."

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    AW: Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkshood View Post
    One of these comes out every few months, with a different conclusion depending who writes it. This one was written by a celty type, I can tell. It will go down well with a Scotsman readership.



    ....etc.
    Well, I agree with you on that, not that reliable so far. But just one comment concerning blondism. Blondism being not that uncommon in Western Europe and might have been even wider spread in the past, not forgeting Berberid/South Cromagnid variants which are quite depigmented and might share certain relations too. So blondism alone is no guarantee for Scandinavian descent, even less so if speaking about the shades of red being more typical for Cromagnids.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Sunday, October 29th, 2006 at 11:16 PM.
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    Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Here View Post

    Instead, a research team at Oxford University has found the majority of Britons are Celts descended from Spanish tribes who began arriving about 7,000 years ago.
    There were no Spanish people then so it should have said the Celts are decended from tribes who came from Spain.

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    AW: Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dropkick View Post
    There were no Spanish people then so it should have said the Celts are decended from tribes who came from Spain.
    Or even better: Iberia or South-Western Europe.
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    Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried View Post
    Indeed; no such identity existed at the time.
    Never mind identity! The bloody language hadn't split from the IE common stock!

    I pity the common man who has half an interest in such matters - he must end up totally bewildered. The media and even academia shows NO sense of responsibility.

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    Re: We're nearly all Celts under the skin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dropkick View Post
    There were no Spanish people then so it should have said the Celts are decended from tribes who came from Spain.
    http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=8973

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