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Thread: The Future of Germanic England

  1. #41
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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFakeSaxon View Post
    for whatever reason, England's cities seem to be a tad darker... f.e. London youths look more Atlantidish...
    Are we looking at the effects of two centuries of Irish immigration and subsequent proliferation here? I myself am half a product of this, and might even admit that it's had some adverse results on the English population...

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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Are we looking at the effects of two centuries of Irish immigration and subsequent proliferation here? I myself am half a product of this, and might even admit that it's had some adverse results on the English population...
    That sounds very self-hateful...
    Would you consider dark haired Germans less german? Or blonde spaniards less "spanish"?
    Phenotype is an integral part of ethnic definition but one has to define a range for each group using logical and historical basis; "atlantid" types existed in Britain long before the Saxons and subsequent tribes invaded and conquered; more, the Norman invasion saw a double ethnic culture re-settle most of the land (the Normans were partial norse/partial continental "west-european" types).
    Having said that, of course you have to draw the line somewhere but claiming that "non-blonde, non-depigmented types are not English" is a fallacy; do you actually believe that Henry the Fifth's men were all blonde and with blue eyes? How many english kings had dark hair? More, not ALL saxons had these "nordish" characteristics but that doesn't mean they were not the root of the modern englishman.

    Sorry for the long post, i'm not english and would probably do best by keeping my "mouth" shut but I just dislike self-hating people who have no reason for that; on the other hand, had you been a black jamaican i'd be giving you a handgun...
    That people breed with those they find attractive within their own ethnic population is all the eugenics I think is necessary. - Milesian

  3. #43
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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    That sounds very self-hateful...
    No, I had in mind the effect of a large ethnic Irish population on group cohesion and on values - much more psychological than racial, as such. You can occasionally find the odd idiot who will say "Well, we were immigrants too, once," or "They used to say the same sort of thing about the Irish." They are only the people next door, and it's not as if they're Andaman Islanders or anything, but a LOT did come in a very short space of time. They often feel English, but often aren't in a purely genetic sense! And their surnames, and often their religion, are not something they can hide from.
    I don't think it's insurmountable, but it would be foolish to ignore such a question.

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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Are we looking at the effects of two centuries of Irish immigration and subsequent proliferation here? I myself am half a product of this, and might even admit that it's had some adverse results on the English population...
    Not necessarily... even before the Irish there would have been Welsh and Italians, more importantly traders from northern France moving to England's cities after the Conquest. Even before that it's not inconcievable that the victorious Anglo-Saxons congregated in rural areas and the coasts as opposed to the indigenous population, speculation of course, maybe John Beddoe has something to say on the matter.

    What really pushed out the English were non-white immigrants (although in some places a reflux & gentrification - f.e. Notting Hill - because of rising property prices), apparently even London Jews & Irish, themselves recent immigrants, are abandoning inner London for the outer suburbs in the face of so many foreign tongues & faces.

    Anyway coming back to the Irish, well in any case they are quite similar, only "foreign" in of stocky cold-weather types (Brunn/Faelid) who were not that common in England, the English being rather slender body shapes despite bad nutrition.

  6. #45
    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    thanks a lot for responding - I hope you have read the above; the question was formulated provisionally (?) by Agrippa when the threads were separated . I do know if it has a future - I will credit you for showing interest!!

    I love Cornwall! I have been there quite a lot .I find it truely Keltic and enjoy the names & the old Saints. A Cornish Slate Cross has been on my wall for years. I think it deserves some greater Regional (?) recogition. That is part the debate too I guess... atlantid England, nordid England, mixed-up England .... dumped upon England. What does the future hold?

    ps..I am actually from Hampshire - if anything even more Saxon!
    Personally, I don't think there's any reason that Englishness would belong to one sub-type more than another. One would have a hard time arguing, one is more English than the other, when both have their roots in England since time memorial.
    I don't differentiate between Altantids and Nordids in England, like OFS said, we haven't got the copyright to the North Germanic look, as would be stereotypical of Sweden.
    I think stereotypically, English people are considered to be more Keltic-Nordid looking. But we are very regionalised in terms of Sub-types.

    I find alarm in what you wrote, which i have boldened, not that you meant it, but it almost seems like comparing the differences between atlantids and nordids with multiracialism. I personally would diverge greatly from differentiating between 2 "native" europid sub-types, who share a common identity in being English, especially when there is a slight bias to one(Nordid) which arrived later in what was to become England, than the Atlantid component.
    Tired

  7. #46
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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFakeSaxon View Post
    Not necessarily... even before the Irish there would have been Welsh and Italians, more importantly traders from northern France moving to England's cities after the Conquest.
    Hardly on a scale comparable to that of the Navvies in the 1800s. The amount of huge engineering projects, transport boom and manufacturing employment is incomparable to anything previous. We also saw a certain degree of what might today be referred to as enforced integration, as schools and slums brought the natives and incomers into new proximity.

    Even before that it's not inconcievable that the victorious Anglo-Saxons congregated in rural areas and the coasts as opposed to the indigenous population, speculation of course, maybe John Beddoe has something to say on the matter.
    Don't forget the extra infusion from the Norse. In many western and northern areas this was probably more numerous and influential than the Anglian settlement.
    What really pushed out the English were non-white immigrants (although in some places a reflux & gentrification - f.e. Notting Hill - because of rising property prices), apparently even London Jews & Irish, themselves recent immigrants, are abandoning inner London for the outer suburbs in the face of so many foreign tongues & faces.

    Anyway coming back to the Irish, well in any case they are quite similar, only "foreign" in of stocky cold-weather types (Brunn/Faelid) who were not that common in England, the English being rather slender body shapes despite bad nutrition.
    I wish I was a better visual anthropologist, as then I'd have something more worthwhile to contribute here, but it seems to me a lot of your observations are more valid for the south east.

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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Hardly on a scale comparable to that of the Navvies in the 1800s. The amount of huge engineering projects, transport boom and manufacturing employment is incomparable to anything previous. We also saw a certain degree of what might today be referred to as enforced integration, as schools and slums brought the natives and incomers into new proximity.
    That's true, but 20,000 Welsh & Italians in say 1600 (for argument's sake) would be worth 800,000 in "today's money".

    Wikipedia has these numbers for London's population around the time of the Conquest;

    1000 — 5–10,000

    1100 — 10–20,000

    I wish I was a better visual anthropologist, as then I'd have something more worthwhile to contribute here, but it seems to me a lot of your observations are more valid for the south east.
    OK but you see my point, there are pyknomorphs like Wayne Rooney in Ireland, small Alpines in France and borealised squat folk in Scandinavia, but for whatever reason, England is not rich in those body types, maybe in common with the Netherlands which is why their height is so spectacular.

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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFakeSaxon View Post
    That's true, but 20,000 Welsh & Italians in say 1600 (for argument's sake) would be worth 800,000 in "today's money".
    Why Italians and Welsh? What kind of migrants were these?
    Wikipedia has these numbers for London's population around the time of the Conquest;

    1000 — 5–10,000

    1100 — 10–20,000
    Interesting, but wasn't London always a net importer of people? What with plagues and other bad effects of overcrowding and early urban life? I think I read an article on here somewhere to that effect.
    OK but you see my point, there are pyknomorphs like Wayne Rooney in Ireland, small Alpines in France and borealised squat folk in Scandinavia, but for whatever reason, England is not rich in those body types, maybe in common with the Netherlands which is why their height is so spectacular.
    So now we just have an extra type. The taller ones will continue to exist.

  10. #49
    Senior Member Carl's Avatar
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    Re: Post examples of Atlantid chicks

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson View Post
    Yup, I've held for some time now that a fair bit of the Nordid/Anglo-Saxon population of old England was drained off during the colonial period--to America, Canada, Africa, Australia & New Zealand.

    By no means all or even the vast bulk--but surely a fair few.

    Manifest destiny, baby! The Nordid's wander-lust.

    one couldnt possibly deny this - at least to some extent. But this migration wasnt done by any subrace selection! I am sure it was entirely random . Look at the Scots and , for other reasons perhaps, the Irish abroad - everywhere really! The Welsh in S America?

    What remains today is inevitably mixed all together into a general gene pool where "subtypes" will appear only within the general continuum.

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    Re: Can only Nordid people be ideal English?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFakeSaxon View Post
    If anything, in an attempt to dispell "Nordid bias" I sometimes think that the Anglo-Saxoness of England is under-rated. Now that I know what an A-S is, I recall many, many types from my school days in rural England. Just the robust Nordid features, hair going from light brown to rufous blond to lighter blond, this is a familiar thing. Mind you, even I had yellow hair back then

    Ah, schooldays! yes well, there is of course the problem of infant blondness....but beyond that, I do agree that the residual and original (?) phenotype is always around to some extent within the contiuum; what is interesting is to think about the percentage levels**. I go on about the earlier Saxon settlements in southern and eastern England and one might think, other things being equal , that it is in these areas where the original germanic characteristics might well be mostly found. I am after all hanging on to what Agrippa has , in one of these threads , stated -- that the Nordid is the base of the Germanic.....though obviously it doesnt stop there and we have already been through the several variants that are to be found throughout Europe.

    That was all a long time ago. I am resisting complicating the picture by mentioning the coming of Viking settlement - a big part of the ultimate mix which took England into the middle ages.

    (** I think it is in one of Bridie's current threads that Agrippa and others advance the discussion of this topic into the realms of selection and eugenics... a hot subject and one which necessitates considerable caution!)

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