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Thread: Claws Out Over Claim China discovered America

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    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Claws Out Over Claim China discovered America

    By Lindsay Beck and Ben Blanchard
    Mon Jan 16, 8:20 AM ET



    BEIJING (Reuters) - The Chinese are said to have discovered gunpowder, paper and the compass, but it may be too early to claim they discovered America

    A map purported to date from 1418 suggesting a Chinese fleet sailed to America decades before Christopher Columbus was displayed in Beijing on Monday, but the piece of yellowing paper is the centre of a storm of criticism over its authenticity.

    The map, which is said to be an 18th-century copy of the 1418 original, shows both North and South America in unusual detail.

    It was bought in 2001 by Chinese lawyer and art collector Liu Gang, who says he did not realise its significance until reading a book by a British writer who claimed a Chinese admiral beat Columbus to the punch.

    Gavin Menzies, author of the bestseller "1421: the Year China Discovered America," says Admiral Zheng He led a fleet of 30,000 men aboard 300 ships to the American continent in the 15th century to expand Ming China's influence.

    "This map embodies information I believe will help us understand Zheng He's seventh voyage," Liu, who bought the map for $500 (283 pounds), told a news conference.

    "The map shows us the Chinese explorer has been to America years before Columbus. The map also shows us the Chinese understanding of the entire world."

    Yet whether Zheng, a Muslim eunuch known to have sailed as far as southern Africa, beat Columbus to America by more than 70 years is bitterly debated.

    Some academics point to a score of inconsistencies in both the book and the map, saying, for example, the map uses language that does not fit the style of Ming China.

    "I'm inclined to think that it's a fake," said Geoff Wade, a visiting senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore. "There's absolutely no evidence that the Zheng He voyages went anywhere past the east coast of Africa."

    Historical records show that from 1405 to 1433, Zheng, under the orders of Emperor Zhu Di, led China's imperial Star Fleet on seven epic voyages.

    Now, Zheng's voyage is being used by the Chinese government for political purposes, as a way of showing the country's rising power will not threaten its neighbours, Wade said.

    "Zheng He is being pushed all over Asia as part of the Chinese foreign ministry's foreign policy, with the statement that Zheng He's voyages to Asia and beyond were peaceful," he told Reuters by telephone.

    Liu, who showed only a copy of the map, saying the insurance company would not let him take the real thing out of its bank vault, is convinced of its authenticity and says even Jesuit missionary Matteo Ricci based his maps on Zheng He's.

    Ricci is thought to be the first person to draw a map of the world for the Chinese in the 1500s.

    Liu says he believes his map could lead to more evidence supporting the claim the Chinese discovered America.

    "I strongly believe that other maps exist, that other books exist but people may not see their importance," he said. "I published this map to wake up those men."




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    Useless information to me, for in my knowledge, Vinland was discovered by LeifuR Eiriksson and his fellow Vikings who swept the oars through the icy waters.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Senior Member Xanthochroid's Avatar
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    America was not discovered by anybody, all of the top people of the ancient world knew of or at least had hints to its existance. If anybody "discovered" America it would be the Natives who resided there before the colonial period.

    The last thing the Earth needs now is for all the races and cultures to start arguing about who "discovered" America first.
    The third shall be the final and decisive one.

    He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
    He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child - teach him.
    He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him.
    He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise - follow him.

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    Only 400 years after Leif?

    That is respectable...

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    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthochroid
    America was not discovered by anybody, all of the top people of the ancient world knew of or at least had hints to its existance. If anybody "discovered" America it would be the Natives who resided there before the colonial period.

    The last thing the Earth needs now is for all the races and cultures to start arguing about who "discovered" America first.
    But what of the Nordic remains found in America recently which date back before the arrival of the Native Americans?
    Tired

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    Senior Member Xanthochroid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShieldofDanelaw
    But what of the Nordic remains found in America recently which date back before the arrival of the Native Americans?
    I am sure you will find all sorts of remains there from all sorts of races from ages past, Wether it be Nordic bones, Mongoloid peoples, or Negroid statues.
    The third shall be the final and decisive one.

    He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
    He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child - teach him.
    He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him.
    He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise - follow him.

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    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthochroid
    I am sure you will find all sorts of remains there from all sorts of races from ages past, Wether it be Nordic bones, Mongoloid peoples, or Negroid statues.
    But don't they hold the true answer to whom actually discovered it?
    Tired

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    Senior Member Xanthochroid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShieldofDanelaw
    But don't they hold the true answer to whom actually discovered it?
    Yes, but who cares? Wether it was Carthaginians, Chinese, Vikings, Negroids, Martians, or a Hyperborean Master Race, America is already known by all and is already mapped.

    Why does everyone have to question who discovered it or was there first?
    Does every continent need to have an author?
    The third shall be the final and decisive one.

    He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
    He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child - teach him.
    He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him.
    He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise - follow him.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthochroid
    Yes, but who cares? Wether it was Carthaginians, Chinese, Vikings, Negroids, Martians, or a Hyperborean Master Race, America is already known by all and is already mapped.

    Why does everyone have to question who discovered it or was there first?
    Does every continent need to have an author?
    Then why also bother with where our racial origins began? Why bother with any of it?.. Maybe because many people are interested and it helps us know our past movements and understand more!

    Do you think Humans have discovered enough that we now need not to endeavour to find out more? Well, we have trillions of acres of things to find out. And if the American indians aren't indeed native, then why let it be, if there is truth to be discovered?
    Tired

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    Senior Member Xanthochroid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShieldofDanelaw
    Then why also bother with where our racial origins began? Why bother with any of it?.. Maybe because many people are interested and it helps us know our past movements and understand more!

    Do you think Humans have discovered enough that we now need not to endeavour to find out more? Well, we have trillions of acres of things to find out. And if the American indians aren't indeed native, then why let it be, if there is truth to be discovered?
    I never implied that we should not know the true history of the world.
    I never implied that we should not seek our origins.
    I never implied there is nothing else to learn or discover.

    It is just senseless to know about who discovered or first arrived on a certain continent let alone if that could happen, since a continent is a huge area where many can traverse at different times without bumping into each other.

    The whole concept of discovering land or regions on this planet is senseless. What you should all really be seeking the answer to is who arrived on Earth first.
    The third shall be the final and decisive one.

    He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
    He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child - teach him.
    He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him.
    He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise - follow him.

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