Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Thread: Neanderthals and Later Populations in Europe

  1. #1
    Disinterested
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Last Online
    Tuesday, September 13th, 2005 @ 09:17 PM
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Gender
    Politics
    Folkish
    Posts
    1,403
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Neanderthals and Later Populations in Europe

    The idea of Neanderthal admixture into later populations is defended for Vindija in Croatia.

  2. #2
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,484
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    17
    Thanked in
    14 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Multiregionalism is supported in Palestine, and in the Balkans.
    Cown and Keith considered the Mount Carmel samples as "in the throes of evolutionary change"...
    in the beginning the finds were treated as one single sample with a great bandwith of variability, ranging from modern to neanderthaloid but still fairly modern to definite neanderthaler(a minority of individuals), linked by identical tool-kit and burial ceremonies, only later they brought a sharp unorganic division between the levantines.
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Monday, January 26th, 2004 at 05:50 PM.

  3. #3
    Disinterested
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Last Online
    Tuesday, September 13th, 2005 @ 09:17 PM
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Gender
    Politics
    Folkish
    Posts
    1,403
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    Cown and Keith considered the Mount Carmel samples as "in the throes of evolutionary change"...
    in the beginning the finds were treated as one single sample with a great bandwith of variability, ranging from modern to neanderthaloid but still fairly modern to definite neanderthaler(a minority of individuals), linked by identical tool-kit and burial ceremonies, only later they brought a sharp unorganic division between the levantines.
    Wolpoff and Lee found that some of the "sapiens" were closer to the Neanderthal types than to each other in that region.

    They found this branching order.

    Tahun
    Qafzeh III
    Skhul IV - Skhul IX
    Qafzeh IX
    Amud
    Qafzeh VI
    Skhul V

  4. #4
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,484
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    17
    Thanked in
    14 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Wolpoff and Lee found that some of the "sapiens" were closer to the Neanderthal types than to each other in that region.

    They found this branching order.

    Tahun
    Qafzeh III
    Skhul IV - Skhul IX
    Qafzeh IX
    Amud
    Qafzeh VI
    Skhul V
    Indeed, Jelinek compared the Mladec5 with the Spy2 Neanderthaler to prove regional continuity, shape and cranial size were considered similar, the moderns actually accentuated certain particularities common to Neanderthalers, which might hint on hybrid vigour.

    Wolpoff also disapproves of using the qualification of *modern* for the early modernsof 100000years ago, often they display a range of features which one cant fail to consider archaic in comparison to Late Pleistocene and Holocene man.

    Great variability does also exist among the Neanderthalers, for instance the basion-bregmatic skull height of La Chapelle and La Ferrassie1 was resp.130mm and 136mm, in regard to La Chapelle the specimen equals the Skhul people, La Ferrassie excels them and should be considered on this single aspect high-roofed and near to Combe Capelle.

  5. #5
    Disinterested
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Last Online
    Tuesday, September 13th, 2005 @ 09:17 PM
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Gender
    Politics
    Folkish
    Posts
    1,403
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    Wolpoff also disapproves of using the qualification of *modern* for the early modernsof 100000years ago, often they display a range of features which one cant fail to consider archaic in comparison to Late Pleistocene and Holocene man.

    The use of the word "early modern" is itself grounded on the idea that they are actually archaic, but are part of an archaic group that is seperate to neanderthals, and closer to true moderns.

    What do you think of Skhul V, which has been compared to later Australasians?

  6. #6
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,484
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    17
    Thanked in
    14 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    The use of the word "early modern" is itself grounded on the idea that they are actually archaic, but are part of an archaic group that is seperate to neanderthals, and closer to true moderns.

    What do you think of Skhul V, which has been compared to later Australasians?
    Coon affirms in his The Origin of Races that the Skhul V male was essentially Australoid and not fully Europoid.
    The deep set nasal root and flattened nasal bone are in line with the Australoids, uncannily the degree of flatness of the upper face bears more than a passing similarity to the Bushmen; Wadjak I should be mentioned here too.

    The Skhul V skull was ill-fitted with prominent pariental bosses, modern Australoids and Melanesians display a similar structure; idem Combe Capelle and pithecoid markings are common to the Central European Cromagnids.
    The eminency in the pariental region is a Cro Magnon characteristic, the eastern variety was more ellipsoid but equally low vaulted.

    Skhul V was even more low vaulted than modern Australoids' average, comparable to both the other Levantine samples and the West European Neanderthalers, while from Wadjak I till the mesolithic finds of Tam Pong the predecessors of the Australasians were definitively from bregma down to basion high, but still in the same league as La Ferrassie and La Chapelle or the Aurignicians; curiously high-vaultedness was in the Late Pleistocene an aberration of some *Negroid* types in SW Europe and the Chancelids.
    Insofar skull breadth is a marker of robusticity, the UPs were like these early modern Levantines of the moderate class, the large head breadth links the present-day Europeans stronger with Neanderthal Man than with the UP, however the distinction between both groups shouldn't be exaggerated, if you check out W.W.Howells craniometric series, http://www.racearchives.com/calc/wwhowells_craniomeasurements.asp,you'll notice that virtually every non-Europid population or etnical group which habitat falls off from the possible territorial range of the Neanderthaler, or in last instance, even not assorted within the darker segments of the Mittlere Linie(I relagete to my Bavarian friend Nordgau the honours to give an account on the theories of Hans Weinert and the concept of the Mittlere Linie, in which he's our Forum's expert), is metrical not compatible with their ancestral forms, but that between Neanderthalers/UP/Ainu/Modern Europeans and the rest of the world yawns a formidable craniometrical ravine, outlined in a rough sketch, most non-Europids and non-Eurasians are medium to very short and narrow-headed, the breadth dramatically consistent in showing means below 139mm.

    In my opinion, Skhul V is a *stand-alone*, possessing a palate of traits and morphological patterns which will define the races of the Mittlere Linie after branching off in a Eurasian and Australasian family,remember even his prognatious character has its equivalent in Combe Capelle, which we would define as a Europid with *equatorial* characteristics.
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Tuesday, January 27th, 2004 at 09:54 PM.

  7. #7
    Disinterested
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Last Online
    Tuesday, September 13th, 2005 @ 09:17 PM
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Gender
    Politics
    Folkish
    Posts
    1,403
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    Coon affirms in his The Origin of Races that the Skhul V male was essentially Australoid and not fully Europoid.
    The deep set nasal root and flattened nasal bone are in line with the Australoids, uncannily the degree of flatness of the upper face bears more than a passing similarity to the Bushmen; Wadjak I should be mentioned here too.

    According to Oppenheimer, Skhul V is closest to Papua New Guinea. But, some people now claim that Wadjak is Paleomongoloid.


    Skhul V was even more low vaulted than modern Australoids' average, comparable to both the other Levantine samples and the West European Neanderthalers, while from Wadjak I till the mesolithic finds of Tam Pong the predecessors of the Australasians were definitively from bregma down to basion high, but still in the same league as La Ferrassie and La Chapelle or the Aurignicians; curiously high-vaultedness was in the Late Pleistocene an aberration of some *Negroid* types in SW Europe and the Chancelids.

    Am I right to think that Negroid refers here to Grimaldid, as I presume?


    In my opinion, Skhul V is a *stand-alone*, possessing a palate of traits and morphological patterns which will define the races of the Mittlere Linie after branching off in a Eurasian and Australasian family,remember even his prognatious character has its equivalent in Combe Capelle, which we would define as a Europid with *equatorial* characteristics.

    What I am speculating on at the moment, is that there were two (main) out of Africa migrations of moderns. One is the migration represented by Skhul V, which continued eastwards to become Australoid. Another migration may have left Africa through Arabia, and that this group split into the other non-African races of today.

  8. #8
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,484
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    17
    Thanked in
    14 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med



    Am I right to think that Negroid refers here to Grimaldid, as I presume?




    I was actually thinking of one representative of the extremely tall Cromagnids of Barma Grande with a LHI of 76.7; while orthognatious, with Europoid facial traits and a pelvis of Europid confirmation, their limb proportion and the shape of the heel are *negroid*.
    Personally I find the Old Man of Barma Grande with its wide nasal opening and rather small, low face not that much different from the Grimaldi boy.

    Vallois contemplated for the origin of the Aethiopid race and the semi-Hamitics like the Massai, Nandi and Fulbe/Peul a distant and primitive stock, which never completely seperated itself in a Negrid and Europid direction, which appearances and entity cant be dismissed like by Lundman as a Mischzoneof Black and White races, the problem of later modifications is however to be brought on their account, but are of mere secondary meaning.

    The Barma Grande and Grimaldi types could be rated as their ancestors.
    The East Africans mentioned above have indeed a more regular oval face, perhaps under influence of the Saharids, or /and reinforcing the gracilisation process which is another and often unawared evolutionary property typifying the UPs(see the relation between Faelids/West Elbians and Göta-types:
    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7592).

  9. #9
    Disinterested
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Last Online
    Tuesday, September 13th, 2005 @ 09:17 PM
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Gender
    Politics
    Folkish
    Posts
    1,403
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe and West Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    I was actually thinking of one representative of the extremely tall Cromagnids of Barma Grande with a LHI of 76.7; while orthognatious, with Europoid facial traits and a pelvis of Europid confirmation, their limb proportion and the shape of the heel are *negroid*.
    Personally I find the Old Man of Barma Grande with its wide nasal opening and rather small, low face not that much different from the Grimaldi boy.

    Vallois contemplated for the origin of the Aethiopid race and the semi-Hamitics like the Massai, Nandi and Fulbe/Peul a distant and primitive stock, which never completely seperated itself in a Negrid and Europid direction, which appearances and entity cant be dismissed like by Lundman as a Mischzoneof Black and White races, the problem of later modifications is however to be brought on their account, but are of mere secondary meaning.

    The Barma Grande and Grimaldi types could be rated as their ancestors.
    The East Africans mentioned above have indeed a more regular oval face, perhaps under influence of the Saharids, or /and reinforcing the gracilisation process which is another and often unawared evolutionary property typifying the UPs(see the relation between Faelids/West Elbians and Göta-types:
    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7592).

    I wonder how relevant Herto may be to all of this. Or, further west, Asselar. Which modern subraces in Africa are they closest to?

    I think the situation is complex in east Africa because Ethiopians have mitochondrial relationship with Capoids, and because Brace finds East Africans to be craniometrically close to South Asians.

  10. #10
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,484
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    17
    Thanked in
    14 Posts

    Post Re: Neanderthals and later populations in Europe

    A lot of people here are not aware of the existence of the Herto or H.sapiens idaltu, a primitive but supposedly close member of our species, who lived in Central Ethiopia and was contemporous with the Neanderthaler, providing to the Out-of-Africa faction some *hard* evidence that modern humans appeared first in Africa.

    To accomodate them, I will procure here a few links to make them this subject more accessible:

    http://www.control.com.au/247features.htm

    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/LR-34b.htm

    http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993814

    http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/r...ckground.shtml


    Attached:
    *Neanderthaler
    *Homo erectus
    *Herto

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Neanderthals Were Mariners
    By Storm Saxon in forum History
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Tuesday, March 6th, 2012, 07:05 PM
  2. Last Neanderthals in Europe Died Out 37,000 Years Ago
    By Nachtengel in forum Paleoanthropology
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Wednesday, February 3rd, 2010, 04:29 AM
  3. Cro-Magnons Conquered Europe, but Left Neanderthals Alone
    By Agrippa in forum Paleoanthropology
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: Friday, May 12th, 2006, 04:29 PM
  4. Late Neanderthals 'more like us'
    By Vanir in forum Anthropogeny & Ethnogenesis
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 01:31 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •