View Poll Results: Do the Germanic gods really exist?

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    55 45.45%
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    40 33.06%
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Thread: Do You Believe in the Literal Existence of the Gods?

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    Question Do You Believe in the Literal Existence of the Gods?

    Do you believe that Thor, Odin, Frey, etc actually exist as gods? Are they real entities?

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    Senior Member jcs's Avatar
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    Do you believe that Thor, Odin, Frey, etc actually exist as gods? Are they real entities?
    Define 'real.' The only thing approaching reality is one's thought of such-and-such as real. The task of man is to unify his thoughts with the world around him. Now, what does an understanding of gods as external entities do? They could be 'real' or 'unreal' in this sense, but who cares? Skepticism is too simplistic: it breaks the world and thoughts down into a true/untrue dichotomy. Rather than asking, "Is this true?" "Is that false?", one should ask, "How is this true?" "How can I understand this in a way such that I can learn from it?" I find this pertainent:
    Here's a question with relevance to a problem touched on by Deleuze, that of multiplicities - that a concept (a 'multiplicity') has several subsumed 'singularities' (e.g. Hobbes' social contract: man as a wolf to man, man possessing the capacity to reason, surrender of political sovereignty to a central organisation). However, concepts are intensive multiplicities, in that adding or a singularity in relation to the multiplicity changes its nature (hence 'intensive' vs 'extensive'). The extension (or retraction) of multiplicities can also not change its nature, but rather encompass a larger number of singularities (e.g. the concept 'American' can be extended in its application to incorporate more people into the concept) without altering the concept, in which case the multiplicity is extensive. To answer your question - Spengler used 'organism' as an intensive multiplicity. He employed it in a different context which altered its definition. 'Literality' is contextual. http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpo...8&postcount=17
    Are the gods 'real'? Should we understand them 'literally'? Would my understanding of them as real or non-real change my understanding of the gods in any way? Methinks not.
    Out of life's school of war...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs
    The only thing approaching reality is one's thought of such-and-such as real.
    The only useful thing I learned during my philosophy studies was a sure-fire method of curing someone who has the "outside reality does not exist" syndrome.

    The solution is to ask him/her to climb to the roof of the tallest being around, and throw themselves off the roof. If they refuse to do it, it means that they believe in an objective outside reality after all. And if they actually do it, well, they won't claim that "outside reality does not exist" anymore either, because they'll be dead.




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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs
    Define 'real.' The only thing approaching reality is one's thought of such-and-such as real. The task of man is to unify his thoughts with the world around him. Now, what does an understanding of gods as external entities do? They could be 'real' or 'unreal' in this sense, but who cares? Skepticism is too simplistic: it breaks the world and thoughts down into a true/untrue dichotomy. Rather than asking, "Is this true?" "Is that false?", one should ask, "How is this true?" "How can I understand this in a way such that I can learn from it?" I find this pertainent: Are the gods 'real'? Should we understand them 'literally'? Would my understanding of them as real or non-real change my understanding of the gods in any way? Methinks not.
    I don't think you understand my question. If they 'really' exist, they would be literal entities with or without your or my existence - whether people believe in them or not. If it's only in your mind, then it means they do not really exist. I don't think this is so difficult to comprehend.

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    Senior Member jcs's Avatar
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    The only useful thing I learned during my philosophy studies was a sure-fire method of curing someone who has the "outside reality does not exist" syndrome. The solution is to ask him/her to climb to the roof of the tallest being around, and throw themselves off the roof. If they refuse to do it, it means that they believe in an objective outside reality after all. And if they actually do it, well, they won't claim that "outside reality does not exist" anymore either, because they'll be dead.
    The external, of course, 'exists,' but its existence means nothing to the subject save in its relation to the subject, and the best way for the subject to relate to his objects is for him
    to unify his thoughts with the world around him
    I don't think you understand my question. If they 'really' exist, they would be literal entities with or without your or my existence - whether people believe in them or not. If it's only in your mind, then it means they do not really exist. I don't think this is so difficult to comprehend.
    I understood, and my response to the question is that all that is meaningless to the subject. I object to people worrying their little minds about trivial concerns, and permitting their understanding to be crippled as a consequence of these trivialities. Thus I refrained from voting.
    Out of life's school of war...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs
    I object to people worrying their little minds about trivial concerns, and permitting their understanding to be crippled as a consequence of these trivialities. Thus I refrained from voting.
    I am not worried at all about this, merely curious. And I don't think it's a triviality. If one can't tell what you actually believe in then there's somewhere a problem, I think...

    We have previously discussed that Asatruars cannot by definition be atheists as well. Of course this would naturally assume all Asatruars would vote 'Yes' in this poll. Or not?

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    They exist as [Jungian] archetypes of the Germanic soul.

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    They do.

    Our gods are not some sign for metalheads to dress up as ancient Germanics on a weekend for a horn of mead or a round of LARP.

    While our gods are also a manifestation in everything that is natural, they still exist as such, they are not solely symbolic.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    They do.

    Our gods are not some sign for metalheads to dress up as ancient Germanics on a weekend for a horn of mead or a round of LARP.

    While our gods are also a manifestation in everything that is natural, they still exist as such, they are not solely symbolic.
    I wonder then if these gods of the Northmen, if they exist, are even concerned at all with the folk's welfare. My guess is they are not in the slightest. Either that, or they are powerless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conan the Barbarian
    Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, and why we died. All that matters is that today, two stood against many. Valor pleases you, so grant me this one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, the HELL with you!


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