View Poll Results: Do the Germanic gods really exist?

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Thread: Do Heathens/Pagans Believe in the Literal Existence of the Gods?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cythraul View Post
    Symbolism is not religion ...
    Indeed, Aryan religion is, and of course it doesn't end there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cythraul View Post
    ... and our Aryan ancestors would not have held so strongly to their religion had it been merely 'symbolism'.
    What are you refering to here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cythraul View Post
    Heathenism is, and was a spiritual wisdom tradition, not merely a method of explaining science.
    I don't see how this would contradict each other?
    Spiritual wisdom is science, see Mathematics or Meta-Physics (or Philosophy in general).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cythraul View Post
    Whatever your own personal feelings towards spirituality, it's undeniable that our ancestors believed in the concept of spirit.
    Err, yes, and so they (most likely) created symbols for it, e.g. a hammer swinging being called Thor .
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  2. #82
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    The way I take Asatru: it a religion of doing not a religion of belief. We actually have records from the Greeks and Romans before the Christian era to show that this was the case with their pagan religion (there's some long word for it forgot what its called). If you do the rituals, follow the morals, and live your life by the culture of Asatru then you are Asatruar. You don't need to profess belief in anything. Though belief does exist- if you didn't believe the religion had some merit you wouldn't do it! But anyone can say they believe- doing proves you believe. So we come back to where we started- it's a religion of doing, not of belief.

    In regards to faith- Asatru is a "faith" but not a blind faith. Most of us haven't been able to measure, examine and test every statement made in Asatru. nor can we say the same about science or other cultural assumptions. We generally trust our community. We trust the religion until it gives us reason not to. If we think something about the religion is irrational- we should question it. If something seems untrue- question it. In this way Asatru is dogmatic, but not in the Christian sense. We need a common ideology that binds us, but we don't force people to believe this with blind faith. We don't even feel the religion is for everyone.

    Too many Asatruar are stuck in Christian modes of thinking.

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    Right Practice

    Hail Rainman;

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    {snip} ...Greeks and Romans before the Christian era to show that this was the case with their pagan religion (there's some long word for it forgot what its called). ... {snip}
    The word you are seeking is Orthopraxy - right practice, which is the way that the Hellenic and Roman religions do look to have been done. The duty was to perform the rituals and sacrifices in the correct manner, on the correct days, whether or not the Gods actually listened.

    I do think that Heathenry is more Heteropraxic, where we have an historical set of rituals (Blót, Sumbel and Husel), but each sets their own manner in how to accomplish them.

    I agree, however, that an important part of our way IS to do, rather than just believe.
    Read Well, Read Widely, Read Wisely;
    For today IS a good day; to DO, to BE, to LIVE...

    Stefn Ullarsson Piparskeggr

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    Personally, I subscribe to the more Jungian side of things, combined with a "belief powers such entities" ideal. As far as the thread is concerned, methinks 'tis interesting to note how smoothly it hath flowed in the past few hours without trolling as opposed to the days preceding said obvious attempt...

  5. #85
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    I didn't mean it in a ritual way. Though that is correct to do the rituals to be part of the religion. But more in the fact that I speak a certain language (and I do think those of us in English speaking countries should have some home tribal language to set us apart from utgard. Maybe old English or Old Norse or something, but if not in the least speak a Germanic language) anyway I speak a certain language, have certain customs, maybe even dress in a certain way, attend certain meetings, live by certain morals etc. because I AM Asatruar, not because I believe in it. Because I want to be more Germanic or I was raised that way or whatever. Not even relating to gods so much as just relating to a culture and a way of life. For example many Jews are atheist. Yet they are Jewish. They honor the customs of their people. They study their people's history. They show up at the synagog at least on certain holidays. And so on- not because they believe in a diety, but because they ARE Jewish and that defines them as a group. I see culture and "religion" as iseperable in this sense. You can't just wake up one day and say "I'll convert to Asatru" then another day change your mind.

    I don't think I'm fully Asatruar. In my view of the religion you need a community and be a part of that community- not just online but on a regular basis, maybe meet at least once a week, live in close proximity etc. Besides community you need to be imersed in the world view, in the customs and the ways of a people. Almost have to be raised in it to fully be a part of it. Yet I call myself a midling as I don't really do the rituals at this point because I don't have the community. But I'm happy with being a midling- its a step in the right direction. At least hopefully I can raise kids who can be fully Asatruar and form some community at some point.

    What I mean is those values you were taught as a child and those worldviews are always with you in some form. You might be 80% Asatru or something but never 100% until you are raised in that culture and totally a part of that community. At least in my opinion, in my own version of Asatru. Just like as Steven McNallen puts it a person doesn't wake up one morning and say "I think I want to be a Lakota Sioux"- a folk way is a little different than more conventional religions. Maybe folk way is a better word than religion. You are typically born into it or at least part of it by heritage in some way, then you accept to live that way. Then that's the gist of it. Being a complete lifestyle a little hard to take on and off like a cloak or a belief.

  6. #86
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    I think that if myths are not meant to be taken literally, then the characters in them, the gods, probably shouldn't be either, or at least that they have deeper meanings than just the literal. Personally I believe that the gods represent spiritual/physical principles, forces, and also archetypes of the Germanic peoples. They could also be distinct personalities and historical figures who inspired the myths.
    Freedom in the Germanic sense means inward independence, the scope for research, the extension of knowledge, and true religious feeling. Freedom for near eastern hybrids and swarthy mongrels means unrestrained license to destroy other cultural values...To grant outward freedom to everyone without distinction is to deliver oneself over to racial chaos. Only freedom as a bond between racial kindred guarantees the highest development. ~Alfred Rosenberg

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    I see that I've misinterpreted your position here Jäger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Err, yes, and so they (most likely) created symbols for it, e.g. a hammer swinging being called Thor .
    Yes. In this sense Aryan Paganism is symbolic, but it is not overall an allegory for non-existent spirituality. I assumed when you called it symbolic that this is what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    I don't see how this would contradict each other?
    Spiritual wisdom is science, see Mathematics or Meta-Physics (or Philosophy in general).
    I fully agree. I think science, through meta-physics, is actually growing towards religion, rather than away from it. There'll come a time soon when atheism is no longer the most scientific standpoint one can take. For example, recent scienctific discoveries hint at a holographic universe, which reconciles the Meso-American belief of Maya - that our perceived world is illusory.
    "If by being a racialist, you mean a man who despises a human being because he belongs to another race, or a man that believes one race is inherently superior to another in civilisation or capability of civilisation, then the answer is emphatically no." - Enoch Powell

  8. #88
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    Troublesome terms (as already mentioned/alluded to throughout): 'Literal', 'Existence', 'Real', 'Believe', Et. al.

    However, there must be some manner of acknowledgement that one can over-rationalise the question: the use of Logic and Epistemological inquiry, while important, must needs a back-burner to the fact that most of the cosmos remains elusive to us. And yet, we do possess a capacity for accessing (if only glossing their surfaces, never fully penetrating a centre) divine mysteries. As David Hume humbles us thus:

    Philosophy would render us entirely Pyrrhonian, were not nature too strong for it.
    (Yes, I am puposefully invoking irony via the invocation of Hume.)


    And so it is with reason, in so far as reason follows in the wake of the emotive nature of the divine: one does not sit stoically and attempt to reason-out why their mother has died; one does not sit in idle comtemplation of the sea, as if it were an equation, calculable; one does not determine the essence of power - in its entirety - in rumination.

    The nature of the divine, of the gods, lies in all of the doing that occurs all around us; of which we are either unaware (willfully or ignorantly), or, unable to define: were we able to shakle the divine - to fix or lay down definitely and with certitude, that is - what the gods are (their respective ontological status - individuated), we would, by that act alone, become gods ourselves.....with that said, and in further irony, it would follow that it is possible to attain godhood, whilst still enfleshed. It would further follow that gods and demi-gods walk amongst us: en summa, having a biological, and yet transcendent, duality. 'Reason' dicatates that we acknowledge this possibility, and explore it further. If one follows 'reason', one must eventually answer "Yes" to the question posed. Bearing in mind, of course, that a god or demi-god need not be recognised as such by those who are not, to retain their status.

    This all follows logically, and yet Logic remains a blunt instrument in so far as the terms that necessitate Logic and 'reason' are not substratal, but are designatory: terms are the feed that we follow back to our own, and other, minds.


    It is a god-like act, to spark other minds. - for in so doing, we hand another the key that was given to us by whatever god(s) we have earned the favour of.

    In short; yes, the gods exist. And we all get from them what we have sought, and earned, by our own, respective, doing.


    "...exhausted, I was able to raise my axe, but not my shield; Odinn saw to it that it was none the less raised. The important thing was that I had the will to act; and in so doing, was empowered to finish [...] thus began the birth of my spirit..."
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you believe that Thor, Odin, Frey, etc actually exist as gods?
    Religious belief is a Semitic neurosis. The Germanic gods are gods of the blood; they demand sacrifice, not belief.

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    I keep hearing this stuff about 'Aryan religion'... Since when is race religion. Well, it is with the Jews, but we are not Jews, are we?
    "La vie est la vie, c'est-ą-dire un combat, pour une nation comme pour un homme"
    Charles de Gaulle


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