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Thread: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

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    Question Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    Biography:
    "Ramses II was an ancient Egyptian king, third ruler of the 19th Dynasty, the son of Seti I. During the early part of his reign Ramses fought to regain the territory in Africa and western Asia that Egypt had held during the 16th and 15th centuries BC. His principal opponents were the Hittites, a powerful people of Asia Minor, against whom he waged a long war. The major battle of this war was fought in 1274 at Kadesh, in northern Syria, and in 1258 BC a treaty was signed whereby the contested lands were divided and Ramses agreed to marry the daughter of the Hittite king. The remaining years of his rule were distinguished by construction of such monuments as the rock-hewn temple of Abu Simbel, the great hypostyle hall in the Temple of Amon at Karnak, and the mortuary temple at Thebes, known as the Ramesseum."
    [Source]

    "At twenty-three, Prince Ramses was tall and athletic, with well-defined, powerful muscles and a magnificent head of red-gold hair. A broad, high forehead, thick brows arching over small, bright eyes, a long, slightly hooked nose, rounded, delicate rimmed ears, full lips, and a strong chin added up to a commanding, attractive countenance."
    Source: Ramses: Volume II:The Eternal Temple by Christian Jacq

    From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@historian.net>
    Subject: [ANE] Re: [ANE] Red hairde pharoahs

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: <labores@azboss.net>

    Subject: [ANE] Red hairde pharoahs

    > Not that I see the Discovery channel as an authoritative source
    > but in one recent showing they described Ramesses II as having
    > red hair based on his mummy.
    >
    > I'm a mere physician but methinks that hair turns red on corpses
    > over time based on the chemical changes whatever the original
    > color might have been.
    >
    > What say you?

    "<snip>When his mummy was sent to France for preservation work,
    detailed studies were conducted. one of which focused on his hair.
    I have seen the mummy in the Cairo museum and remember the reddish-yellow hair. His hair had been white but was cosmetically dyed with henna by the embalmers. I would suspect that this was conducted after mummification
    in order to approximate his hair color in life, which although snowy white was dyed to conform to its color in youth. Studies of the root bulbs of his hair confirmed natural red pigment. So Ramses was a wavy red head when
    young, turned white with age and was dyed with henna."

    To follow up on Mr. Kilmon's comments:

    This is from the French report, this portion of the report being
    in English: "Ramses Ild mummy’s hair is confined to a temporo-occipital zone which corresponds to an advanced stage of baldness. Hairs are slightly crimped and show an oval cross-section, the great axis of which lies between 60 and 70 urn : they are specific of <« a cymotrich leucoderm >>. [1]

    The sample which was investigated comprised identical percentages of fully depigmented and pigmented hairs, the overall colour being a light fair red with some tendency towards yellow.

    Although the microscope examination was able to show strong evidence of red pigments, no evidence of possible <(fair » pigments was obtained : the latter might be present as a « diffuse b> component which could be masked by a faint yellow dye (probably arising from dilute « Henna >> or one if its derivatives). [2]

    The examination of pieces of hairs fallen from the mummy’s head gave some explanations to the conspicuous fragility shown by the samples during handling. Some abrasion of the cuticle, probably present during Ramses Ild’s life. was also noticed.

    Physico-chemical aggressions, during Ramses Ild’s life, have led to the disappearance of part of the cuticular sheet. which is known to play a protective action on the corticex of the hair ; as a consequence, the latter was modified to a more « spongious ‘> and << porous >> state : that lead to a slow but very efficient oxidation Of cystinic bonds. This oxidation could explain the strength losses and was confirmed by amino-acid analysis."

    [1] literally, a 'wavy-haired' person with 'white skin.'

    [2] In essence, elements of red hair were found in the mummy's hair, but evidence of _fair_ hair was not present, or masked by the use of henna. Pheomelanin [FR: phaeomélanine] is the element that makes up red hair, which was found during the electron microscopic examination. However, as many know, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue.

    Within the body of the work, a slightly more detailed information was give (translated from the French):

    "...Under the microscope, there were hairs of two colors : 1) redhead and pigmented; 2) white and completely depigmented, but also colored in sallow by a dye. The fact that the white hairs have under the microscope a sallow hue, it was noted that one used the dilute dye. While reasoning by analogy, one is right to think that the pigmented hairs have been submitted them also to the coloration that, if [the hair] was only light, could have tampered pigments of origin strongly, whom appears redhead...

    The hypothesis that hairs of Ramses were of a redhead clear, and maybe same redhead blond (Venice fair?) seems therefore most likely... If the microscopic exam permitted to recover with certainty an almost redhead pigment, it is not in the same way of the possible fraction blond pigmentation, which could exist in the diffuse state, but would be concealed by a pale yellow dye (probably of the diluted henna [or] either one of its derivative[s]."

    The above is from the report of the the Laboratory of the Judiciary Identification (National Police), who concluded (also translated from the French):

    "It was not possible to recover on the die-hard-thin cuts of the very particular morphologies characterizing pigments of hairs redhead. Nevertheless, observations to the electronic microscope to sweep suggest a certain analogy between hairs of Ramsès II and the present redhead hairs. Results in MEB perfectly confirm those gotten by the laboratory of L'oréal."

    When queried by me (as the L'Oreal report is not present in the work), I received the following information from them (translated from the French):

    "The optic microscopy permitted to determine the redhead hue of pigments. Their morphology in electronic microscopy is compatible with the one of the pigments of pheomelanin. All results are in the book that you mention."

    The full report of the hair analysis of the mummy can be found in _La momie de Ramses II: Contribution scientifique à l'égyptologique_, Lionel, Balout; Roubert, C., Desroches-Noblecourt, Christiane, (Paris, 1985).

    HTH.

    Regards --

    Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

    University of Alabama at Birmingham
    UAB Options/Special Studies

    http://www.griffis-consulting.com
    [Source]

    "The best portrait of Ramses II is a fine statue of him as a young man, now in the Turin museum; his mummy, preserved in a mausoleum at Cairo, is that of a very old man with a long narrow face, prominent nose, and massive jaw."
    [Source]

    Other pictures and x-rays on a paleopathology site. (In French)

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    Look at the jaw, schnozz and prognathism ( ok, perhaps it's because of some deformation, but it could be from some negroid (-like ) ancestry ).

    I doubt that he was Nordic, he strikes me as being a semite/hamite. The sculptures can often be misleading.

    His chin was perhaps strong for Egyptian standards, but it's not very prominent compared to regular Nordics.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    Isn't Ramses II supposed to be the pharoah who booted the jews from Egypt?

    Wasn't the ancient emperor in China supposed to have red hair as well?

    It'd be interesting to come to a conclusion about these things. I think an ancient world ruled by white ancestors would be a tough thing to get them to teach in schools.

    Uneducated question: Is there any evidence to racial groups that are no longer present today? Such as negros/mongos with different color hair.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    Egyptians were caucasoids, or predominantly caucasoids. I see nothing weird about them having light hair, it happens.

    Genghis Khan was also described as a red-haired and grey eyed man. The problem with this is that some say that his hair was such because of hair dyes, the other problem is that Mongols worshipped the grey wolf, which could have also meant that they described him as having grey eyes as a form of mythological relation to wolves.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    The nose is definitely non-Nordic. Perhaps Irano-Afghan is better.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    It would be nice to see a facial reconstruction of him.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    Quote Originally Posted by AWAR
    Egyptians were caucasoids, or predominantly caucasoids. I see nothing weird about them having light hair, it happens.

    Genghis Khan was also described as a red-haired and grey eyed man. The problem with this is that some say that his hair was such because of hair dyes, the other problem is that Mongols worshipped the grey wolf, which could have also meant that they described him as having grey eyes as a form of mythological relation to wolves.
    That is nordicist BS, the "grey wolf" is a region in Mongolian steppes BTW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordhammer
    The nose is definitely non-Nordic. Perhaps Irano-Afghan is better.
    Can't be so.

    There were Hayksos rulers in Egypt at the time (they were Indo-Europeans), they settled the lands of the Hittites. The hittites/anatolians also had quite frequent rufiosity, grew long hair and beards, and many raped/pillaged the Egyptians by sea. However the Egyptian ruling class were said to be "inbred" but if Ramses had such a nose (hooked) that would imply definate Hittite admixture, as the semites did not have hooked noses.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razmig
    However the Egyptian ruling class were said to be "inbred" but if Ramses had such a nose (hooked) that would imply definate Hittite admixture, as the semites did not have hooked noses.

    In the Bronze Age, the aristocracies of the East Mediterranean did intermarry, so that would not be unexpected.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    It's not nordicist BS, if it's anyone's bullshit, it's Chinese, because it's from theirs 'secret history of the mongols' writing that date from medieval times.

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    Post Re: Was Ramsès II Nordic?

    Quote Originally Posted by AWAR
    It's not nordicist BS, if it's anyone's bullshit, it's Chinese, because it's from theirs 'secret history of the mongols' writing that date from medieval times.
    The only places I've heard saying "Ghengis was a white man" and "Attila was a Viking" are nordicist sources. There has been thoulsands of representational images of Ghengis in the western world, he was undoubtedly Mongoloid.

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