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Thread: Nordish Diaspora (for Colonialists, travellers, & all that are Nordish)

  1. #21
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    One other thing. Scotland and Norway before about 1800 were my Fatherlands. I'm interested in the history, culture, and heritage from before then and how it shaped what I have now. However, anything since my people left is foreign to me. I have no ties to it through blood or practice. My people have been something different and seperate ever since and will be forever more.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan
    These lands ARE the lands of my forefathers. Are my ancestors who lived in Nova Scotia any less important or significant then those that lived in Scotland? NO! They chose to relocate here and they shaped this land through blood and sweat and in return this land shaped them into a unique culture which is not present in the old world. I'm proud to be from Nova Scotia, it IS my Fatherland, and I would NOT move to Europe over it.
    Perhaps I am at a loss for understanding this colonial mentality.

    My ancestors were lured here between the wars with pro-Nordish immigration policies.

    Then again,

    I doubt that I am at all in the wrong in this circumstance.

    I'm not asking anyone to return to Europe, just suggesting that you should remain connected to wherever the largest group of Nords is at any given time.

    I will reiterate once more that by foreign land I meant non-Nord dominated lands and Nova Scotia is Nord dominated so we aren't arguing over anything?
    Your reason is faulty, we may not have been here long enough yet for it to effect the evolution of our people physically but it certainly has decided who we are culturally and created certain attitudes and ethics in us.
    Aye.

    We have been here long enough to gain a lot and lose a lot.

    Kinda like a drunkard in a casino, eh?
    If we follow your logic of evolution then shouldn't everyone's Fatherland be Africa, or the steppes of Asia?
    Interesting that you mention.

    That actually proves my point that geographic boundaries are meaningless since Nordics were not originally Europeans but they took over and interbred with the aboriginal Europeans.

    My logic (as I have previously stated) is that The Fatherland (or "main Fatherland" incase you have an exclusive emotional attachment to some application of the word, "fatherland") is wherever the most/ greatest population % concentration of Nords are at one time.

    That's why it could now be said that Scandinavia is a Nordish Fatherland while it was not always Nordish..... because Nordics came from the steppes of southern Russia.

    So we actually agree, we just have different concepts of what a "Fatherland" is.

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  4. #23
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    I still don't think we see eye to eye on this, but I've made my points.
    Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin's Pie
    So we actually agree, we just have different concepts of what a "Fatherland" is.
    Actually yours is just plain wrong, as it conflates very separate cultural and anthropological concepts. There's no single 'Nordish' people in the national sense and there never has been (why would anyone want there to be?). Certainly Nordish peoples have plenty in common, but to value these similarities to the extent where one can apply the language of romantic nationalism is absurd and needlessly homogenising.

    It would seem your statements here reflect a progression in thinking from standard American white nationalist sentiment to its logical conclusion within the 'Nordish' context: it's great that you've come to realise 'the white race' is an amorphous, culturally sterile body; but you need to learn once and for all not to apply notions of ethnoculture to strictly anthropological groups. The national essence is not something you can arbitrarily bestow upon groups of people simply because they fall within some window of biological similarity.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luh_Windan
    Actually yours is just plain wrong, as it conflates very separate cultural and anthropological concepts. There's no single 'Nordish' people in the national sense and there never has been (why would anyone want there to be?). Certainly Nordish peoples have plenty in common, but to value these similarities to the extent where one can apply the language of romantic nationalism is absurd and needlessly homogenising.
    There was never a German people until they were united in the 19th century.

    It's not even a matter of "homogenising". Cultures should remain distinct and preserved, it's a logical union.

    Never did I suggest there should be one group of indistinguishable "nordish people".
    It would seem your statements here reflect a progression in thinking from standard American white nationalist sentiment to its logical conclusion within the 'Nordish' context
    In the sense that I believe a Dane from birth could be raised a perfect German or Swede if immersed in the culture of those nations then yes. If you want to compare that to "White Nationalist" logic and make it sound as absurd as theorizing a Spaniard could be an ideal Dane, that is unfounded.

    "WN" ignores genetic and cultural realities. Do you believe that the genetic deviations between "nordish" people are so profound as to affect cultural immersion?

    I suppose then that Bismarck was somehow misapplying "WN" concepts to Germanics? They were totally different tribes afterall. eyes:

    Although this is now going off topic all that would be necessary would be a financial union between Germanic nations IMO.

    It would seem to be your quips cater to your irrational, sentimental, aracial, romantic, chauvinstic, isolationism. Of course this leads to an illogical conclusion and you probably call it nationalism.

    Go ahead and give me some more negative reputation points. :icon12:
    you need to learn once and for all not to apply notions of ethnoculture to strictly anthropological groups.
    There is shared common ethnoculture between Germanics. Germanics are more than strictly anthropological specimens.
    The national essence is not something you can arbitrarily bestow upon groups of people simply because they fall within some window of biological similarity.
    Nothing arbitrary about it.

    You make no sense because you say biological similarity is not something that can create a national sense... what is then?

    Everyone has a window, you just have a much smaller one that is ill defined.

    You can imply anyone who wants to see Germanics organized is a "Pan-Aryan White Nationalist" but it won't give your beliefs anymore validity.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin's Pie
    There was never a German people until they were united in the 19th century.
    Not true. The sense of a German nation is far older.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried
    Not true. The sense of a German nation is far older.
    I totally agree with you but they were not an official political entity and OvB had a hell of a time officially uniting them.

    The funny thing is I don't want to unite Nords into a massive cultural wasteland of a nation.

    It'd be enough to have independent genetic repositories where all nations genetics are preserved.

    I don't want to advocate the creation of a blond haired, blue eyed mud race (which is what it would be if we don't retain differences).

    I think that my use of the term, "fatherland" has drawn criticism because people see it as a singular entity and would therefore expect it'd have to be created.

    What I meant was if you are a "Danish-American", learn about Denmark, try and learn the language. Same idea if you are a "German-Canadian".

    We don't have governments that represent us so any political unity we can hope to achieve must come on our own volition.

    My main point is that we can't let attachment to dirt and ice interfere because if we had always been so sentimental we'd have never left the steppes of Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin's Pie
    I totally agree with you but they were not an official political entity and OvB had a hell of a time officially uniting them.
    Very well they were. The largest part and power basis of the Holy Roman Empire in Middle Ages was the regnum Teutonicorum, the German kingdom whose ruler was to become the emperor. And according to the idea of the translatio imperii, a central component of the imperial theory, it was the Germans on whose shoulders the Roman empire was transferred. That all was after a common, supra-tribal German identity and consciousness of Bavarians, Swabians, Saxons etc. evolved in Ottonian-Salian times.

    And when the actual power of the emperor got reduced to the northern Alpine parts and a new push of nationalism happened in late Middle Ages and early modern times, the Holy Roman Empire used to be called Holy Roman Empire of German Nation since then. The contemporaries of former epochs had no problem to regard the Holy Roman Empire primarily, regarding its national content, as a German Reich, least the empire's elites and the rulers themselves.

    Since I just came along similar claims in a different forum, I give here the same examples of sources from the era around 1500:

    In his election treaty of 1519, Charles V pledges himself that he shoulders the imperial honour and dignity "dem heiligen reich zu ern und umb der cristenheit und Deutscher nacion, auch gemains nutz willen" ("to the honour of the Holy Empire and to the, also common, advantage of Christendom and German nation");
    that he shall and will erect and present a regiment with "fromen, annemblichen, tapfern, verstendlichen, redlichen personen Teutscher nation" ("pious, pleasant, brave, understanding, honest persons of German nation");
    that he shall and will always leave "die Teutsch nation, das hailig Römisch reiche und die churfursten, als die vordristen gelider desselben, auch ander fursten, grafen, herren und steende" ("the German nation, the Holy Roman Empire and the electors, as its primary elements, also other princes, counts, nobles and ranks") in their dignities, rights and powers;
    that he shall and will "keinen reichstag ausserhalb des reichs Deutscher nation furnemen oder ausschreiben" ("arrange and proclaim no imperial diet outside of the empire of German nation");
    that he shall and will assign "unser kunigliche und des reichs empter am hof und sonst im reiche auch mit kainer andern nation dan geborn Teutschen" ("our royal and the empire's offices at court and elsewhere in the empire with no other nation than born Germans");
    that he shall and will "in schriften und handlungen des reichs kain ander zunge oder sprach gebrauchen lassen, wann die Teutsch oder Lateinisch zung" ("let use in writings and actions of the empire no other tongue or language than the German or Latin tongues");
    that he shall and will give no new customs "dieweil Teutsch nation und das heilig Römisch reich zu wasser und zu lande zum höchsten vor damit besweret" ("as long as the German nation and the Holy Roman Empire are on water and land highest burdened with it");
    that he shall and will himself "ins reich Teutscher nation persondlich fugen" ("personally betake to the empire of German nation") and use "auch unser kuniglich residenz, anwesen und hofhaltung in dem heiligen Römischen reich Deutscher nation" ("also our royal residence, estate and court in the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation") as much as possible.

    (All quotes after Geschichte in Quellen, ed. By Wolfgang Lautemann and Manfred Schlenke, vol. II: Renaissance – Glaubenskämpfe – Absolutismus, Munich 1966, 109-112.)

    Or this here. From an answer of emperor Maximilian to the imperial ranks in 1510:

    "Dann wa das nit beschehe, oder ichts darin gemyndert werden sollt, wer nit allain kays. maj., sondern auch dem reych und allen Tewtschen mercklicher nachthayl, auch schmach und schympff. Es were auch irer maj. und dem reych kainswegs zu gedulden, dann wa die Venediger ainichen flecken auff dem landt behalten sollten, mueßten ir maj., das reych Tewtscher nacion und unser aller nachkhomen alle zeyt in sorgen und gefärlichait gegen inen stehen [...]."

    (Frankfurts Reichscorrespondenz nebst andern verwandten Aktenstücken von 1376-1519, ed. by Johannes Janssen, vol. II: Aus der Zeit Kaiser Friedrichs III. bis zum Tode Kaiser Maximilians I. 1440-1519, Freiburg i. Br. 1872, 798.)

    ("Because if this didn’t happen or something would be reduced here, not only to His Imperial Majesty but also to all Germans there would be noticeable harm, also dishonour. It would also not to be tolerated to His Majesty and to the empire, because if the Venetians kept some part of the land, His Majesty, the empire of German nation and all our descendants had always to stand against them in concerns and danger ...")

    Same book, page 553. The emperor in 1492:

    "Das uns, dem heiligen reiche, euch und allen Dewtschen, auff die all ander frombd nacion ir mercken haben, ein solich ewig lasster, smah und verdrucken brecht, das vorher nie mer verhoret were. Solichem wir als Romischer keyser dem heiligen reiche, euch und allen stenden Dewtscher nacion zu eren und behaltung alt hergebrachter freyheit furzukamen schuldig und gantz begirlich und geneigt sein, und lieber seligklich von dieser welt scheiden, dann einem solichen unkristenlichen snoden handl ungestrafft und das heilige reich und Dewtsche nacion in disen lesterlichen und unwiderbringlichen vall bey unser regierung wachsen lassen wollten."

    ("That on us, the Holy Empire, you and all Germans, whereto all other pious nations pay their attention, such an eternal burden, dishonour and suppression breaks, which was neber heard before. We as Roman emperor owe to the honour of the Holy Empire, you and all ranks of German nation and preservation of traditional freedom to prevent such and are very desirous and willing to do so and rather to depart this world blessedly than that we would let arise such an un-Cristian disdainful affair with impunity and the Holy Empire and the German nation into this calumnious and irreversible fall during Our rule.")

    In this source edition from which these arbitrary quotes are taken—the imperial correspondence of Frankfurt from 1440 until 1519—similar can be found all over. This work just as example. It wasn’t really a secret in that time that Germans were Germans, and the German nation also had political importance and appears countless times in official documents.

    (And between the end of the old Reich and "OvB" there was the "German Confederation", besides.)
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

    SPENGLER

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    Thank you very much for the information Nordgau.

    I should rephrase that to an "independant" national-political free state.

    German Nationalism was evidently much stronger in the HRE than I had imagined.

    Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin's Pie
    Thank you very much for the information Nordgau.

    I should rephrase that to an "independant" national-political free state.

    German Nationalism was evidently much stronger in the HRE than I had imagined.

    Thanks again.
    Yes, the German problem was not so much of the existence of the German nation and national consciousness as such or that the Reich was generally considered as German, as greater political entity of the German nation, but the German problem was of the political fragmentation, the particular interests of the dynasties and loss of power of the central (imperial) authority in late Medieval and early modern times, namely after the Thirty Years War. In the same period when the kingdoms in western Europe became innerly tighter and uniform nation-states, Germany took the exactly reverse development and became innerly more cleaved and split and as a whole, as the Reich, weaker and more powerless.
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

    SPENGLER

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