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Thread: The end of the TAT-C controversy

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    The end of the TAT-C controversy

    Introductory notes:

    The Pleistocene Epoch is part of the geologic timescale, usually dated as 1.8-1.6 million to 10,000 years before present.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene

    Stone Age--lithic (stone), paleo (upper), meso (middle), and neo (new)
    Upper Paleolithic Period (35,000-10,000 B.C.)
    Mesolithic Period in Europe (7,000-4,000 B.C.)
    Neolithic Period in Europe (4,000-1,500 B.C.)

    http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~hart205/Lectures/lecture2.htm

    Why «N» can not be Mongoloid?

    Siiri Rootsi on N3:

    STR diversty-based calculations of the time depth of hg N3 among the Finnic-speaking European populations suggests expansion time before-around the end of Pleistocene.


    According to the recent, the diversity of hg N3 in eastern Europe, compared to Siberian populations (Yakuts, Buryats), is much higher, which suggests that eastern Europe, rather than Siberia, is a possible origin of the detectable at present expansion of N3 in North Eurasia.


    Source:

    HUMAN Y-CHROMOSOMAL VARIATIONIN EUROPEAN POPULATIONS by SIIRI ROOTSI

    In other words, N3 appeared no later than 8000 BC in Eastern Europe. Evidently, that it appeared in the population carrying N3's ancestral marker – N, and that the population in question was Eastern European as well.

    If N and N3 are Mongoloid markers, then there must a Mongoloid, or at least Mongoloid-Europeoid/Europeoid-Mongoloid population associated with them.

    Incidentally, there was not a single Mongoloid in Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Eastern Europe.

    That's what a prominent Soviet anthropologist, T.I. Alekseeva writes about introduction of the Mongoloid element into Eastern Europe:

    ... с эпохи раннего неолита начинается незначительная "монголизация" того населения, которое в мезолите занимало обширную территорию и характеризовалось выраженными европеоидными чертами.


    … since the Early Neolithic starts insignificant «Mongolization»of the population, which occupied vast territory in the Mesolithic and was characterized by sharply Europeoid traits.


    Source:

    Неолит лесной полосы Восточной Европы (Антропология Сахтышских стоянок)

    М.: Научный мир, 1997. 191 с.



    The Neolith of the forest strip of Eastern Europe. M. Scientific World. 1997


    Available online (in Russian):

    http://www.elibrary.ru/books/alekseeva/030/010.htm#1

    So first (individual) Mongoloids appeared in (the northern part of) Eastern Europe no earlier than 4000 BC... at least 4000 years after appearance of N3 which thus had to appear in the purely Europeoid population... which necessarily carried "N".

    To be continued...

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    The earliest (individual) findings of Mongoloid skulls in Northern Eurasia are dated back only to 6000 BC.

    Как известно, концепция В.В.Бунака о позднем формировании расовых комплексов первого порядка исключала возможность появления монголоидных популяций в Восточной Сибири в донеолитическое время. Анализ палеоантропологического материала Восточной Европы и Сибири бесспорно свидетельствует об ошибочности такого предположения. Полученные радиоуглеродные даты позволили китойский период Восточной Сибири датировать VI тысячелетием до н.э. Мужской череп этого периода из Фофаново (раскоп 4, погр. 7) представляет собой уже полностью сформировавшийся монголоидный комплекс признаков (табл. 10).
    As known, the concept of V.V. Bunak about later formation of racial complexes of the first "formation" excluded possibility of appearance of Mongoloid populations in Eastern Siberia in pre-Neolithic times. Analisys of paleoanthropological material of Eastern Europe and Siberia undisputedly witnesses that this suggestion was false. Established radio-carbon dates allowed to date the Kitoi period of Eastern Siberia by 6000 BC. A male skull from this period from Fofanovo shall be considered as having fully evolved Mongoloid complex of traits.
    In other words, the first Mongoloid skull found in Northern Eurasia was found in Eastern Siberia and dated by 6000 BC... 2000 years after N3 appeared in the purely Europeoid population of Eastern Europe, which carried N!

    Это, в свою очередь, указывает на значительную древность монголоидной расы, формирование которой происходило, очевидно, не позднее верхнего палеолита. Следовательно, восточносибирские популяции располагали значительным запасом времени для их миграции в Восточную Европу.
    This, in turn, points to considerable antiquity of the Mongoloid race, which has been forming , likely, no later than the Upper Paleolithic. So, the EasternSiberian population had enough time for its migration to Europe [to be the source of the "Mongolization"; the author is arguing with other writers who support the idea that the "Mongolization" was just an adaptation of Europeoids to the harsh climate of the Ural region].
    In other words, the source for the Neolithic "Mongolization" were Eastern Siberian Mongoloids... who appeared long after N3 appeared... and there isn't any N in Eastern Siberia, excluding elusive traces of it, obviously coming from the West.

    Same source (in Russian):

    http://www.elibrary.ru/books/alekseeva/040/010.htm

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    how would you integrate your presentation
    with this? any conflicts?

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    "this" is outdated and incomplete

    thus there can't be any conflicts... nor any need to integrate anything with "this"

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    i am not as well-versed as you
    on this subject,

    however, i am interested
    in what you have to say.

    if you will offer some explicative detail
    regarding "outdated and incomplete",

    i will be able to grasp your point.

    i appreciate your time
    and patience.

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    But I've sent you already the link via the rep. system

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    please accept my apologies.

    i did not think to look there
    for messages
    or replies to posts.

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    no problem

    I gather I'm just used to being informed via the rep system :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    "this" is outdated and incomplete

    thus there can't be any conflicts... nor any need to integrate anything with "this"

    One question: in your piece, you say that the oldest Mongoloid skull is 6,000 BP in the region under discussion, and that this is 'proof' of your assertion in your original post.

    If I were to play Devil's Advocate with you, I would suggest that nowhere do you 'prove' that Mongoloids were not present at an earlier date: just because the oldest skull is that old, doesn't prove anything else, if you see what I mean.

    I would also be interested in getting that link to further discussion, if you don't mind.

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    The proof of my assertion is that by the time of appearance of N3 in Eastern Europe the population of Eastern Europe was distinctly Europeoid.

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