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Thread: Does God Exist?

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    Post Re: Does God exist?

    The closest thing to God I believe in would be a Will or Being-Itself that permeate and unifies the universe. It's the Alpha/Omega, or Zero/Infinity that resides in all existence and manifests itself as all reality and experience.

    I think the closest thing human beings can experience to this is their own consciousness, and the best way for them to realize it is to manifest their own Will.

    So it's sort of a Nihilism/Pantheism rolled into one.

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    Post Re: Does God exist?

    Because we have dreamed up alternatives to God, does not neccesarily suggest that he doesn't exist.

    I don't need anyone here, that doesn't mean you don't exist and I'm talking to myself........on second thoughts.....

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100200.htm

    Whether God exists?
    Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

    Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God's existence.

    On the contrary, It is said in the person of God: "I am Who am." (Exodus 3:14)

    I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

    The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

    The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

    The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

    The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

    The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

    Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.

    Reply to Objection 2. Since nature works for a determinate end under the direction of a higher agent, whatever is done by nature must needs be traced back to God, as to its first cause. So also whatever is done voluntarily must also be traced back to some higher cause other than human reason or will, since these can change or fail; for all things that are changeable and capable of defect must be traced back to an immovable and self-necessary first principle, as was shown in the body of the Article.

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    Post Re: Does God exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Homo sapiens developed religion, or rather, evolution developed a religious "culture" in the human psyche, in an attempt to explain the unexplained. Early tribal humans, who commenced implementing their superior intellectual skills (compared to other animals), began asking questions such as "why are we here?" and "what is the purpose of life?", and thus developed the idea of the supernatural to explain the unexplained.
    All simply because we found ourselves at the top of the food chain.

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    Post Re: Does God exist?

    Yeah, he does, definitely.

    i only have to think about all the good things he has done for me and how beautiful he has made the world to know that he exists.


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    Post Re: Does God exist?

    All you have to do now is share your beauty with the rest of us

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    Post Re: Does God exist?

    The way I think about it sometimes...

    The fact that humans have the concept of God in their minds, souls and hearts even though they haven't seen that concept proves the existence of God. We all feel bad when we do 'evil' things, and feel 'good' when we do good things, as much as we try to hide it. Hence the concept of good vs. evil that all religions trying to explain God have in common. And, according to a study I just read, spiritual people who pray live longer on average than non-spiritual people who don't. I don't know the exact statistic, but someone else might have run across it. My small point is, why would someone 'delusional' and 'weak' live longer than someone who isn't? The only thing is, it is obvious God has chosen not to show himself to us in material proof, either because (a)he prefers not to or because (b)as material beings, we don't have the capacity to see God, or (c)both, or (d)neither. My feeling is that it's probably (a) or (b), but since I am only human, and with limited knowledge, how should I know?!

    What I do know is that ever since I became a Christian, and maybe you'll laugh at this, I found my purpose in life, and am forgiven and at peace. But you might say, :Christianity is only one explanation, what about the rest of the religions - Budaism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam"? All religions are the same, they say we must do good, if we are perfect, we'll enter heaven, if not, hell. But then, who has never done wrong and maintained perfection? No one, and this is Christianity's difference, a practical solution to the problem of evil in humans (sin), which is forgiveness by believing in Jesus, whom I (as a Christian) believe to be God's human incarnation, in material terms: God's 'son'. While other religions always maintain impractically (in my opinion, and no offense to anyone of other religions) that we must always do good. And since someone was dreading quoting 'holy' scriptures, I will limit the post to only one quote;-)

    "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
    John 3:16

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    Post Re: Does God exist?

    lol, thanx awar!

    Hey, I think that was a very good post hantendon. I know exactly what you mean.

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    An anthropomorphized God that immaculately impregnates Levantine women or rides an eight-legged horse? No; the likelihood of a God as thought of across humanity's religions is as close to 0 as mathematically possible without actually being 0.

    Now, in the agnostic sense, is there possibly some force behind the universe that we have yet to fully identify? Yes.

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    The may well be beings out in the Universe of such age and power as to be indistinguishable from gods. They might even have created this universe. It should be possible in theory to create a universe. Every black hole for instance, is thought to contain a "baby" universe.

    However whatever these gods or godlike creatures may be, they certainly cannot be both all powerful and all loving. Because the condition of the world with the amount of pain and suffering that abounds everywhere in it, contradicts that possibility.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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