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Thread: Men Cleverer Than Women, Say Scientists

  1. #11

    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    Not according to Webster. Don't you think if it was a word, it'd be right next to "cleverish," "cleverly," and "cleverness?"
    One entry found for clever.
    Main Entry: clev·er
    Pronunciation: 'kle-v&r
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English cliver, perhaps of Scandinavian origin; akin to Danish dialect kløver alert, skillful
    1 a : skillful or adroit in using the hands or body :
    NIMBLE b : mentally quick and resourceful but often lacking in depth and soundness
    2 : marked by wit or ingenuity
    3 dialect a : GOOD b : easy to use or handle
    - clev·er·ish /-v(&-)rish/ adjective
    - clev·er·ly /-v&r-lE/ adverb
    - clev·er·ness /-v&r-n&s/ noun
    synonyms CLEVER, ADROIT, CUNNING, INGENIOUS mean having or showing practical wit or skill in contriving. CLEVER stresses physical or mental quickness, deftness, or great aptitude <a person clever with horses>. ADROIT often implies a skillful use of expedients to achieve one's purpose in spite of difficulties <an adroit negotiator>. CUNNING implies great skill in constructing or creating <a filmmaker cunning in his use of special effects>. INGENIOUS suggests the power of inventing or discovering a new way of accomplishing something <an ingenious software engineer>. synonym see in addition INTELLIGENT

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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    With some disyllabic adjectives (ending in an unstressed vowel), we can use more and most or "-er" and "-est". Both more clever and cleverer are correct. Another example is narrower and more narrow. They are equally fine, but I think more clever sound better. Double 'er' may sound clumbsy.

    You can use clever, cleverer (comparative), cleverest (superlative) or clever, more clever (comparative) and most clever (superlative).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rycerz
    Just curious -- is "cleverer" even a word or should it be "more clever?"

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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    A 5 point difference hardly seems statistically significant
    Testing for statistical significance is essentially mandatory in order to confirm the findings were not the product of chance alone.
    If the difference in the above study was not statistically significant, the researchers would be forced to conclude that no sex differences in intelligence exist.
    Anyway, with a sample as large as 20 000 individuals yielding a 5 point (d=~0.33) difference, the results are surely statistically significant.
    Also, the study found that up until age 14, there was no difference in IQ, but in early adulthood there is a 5 point difference. I am guessing that this was not a longitudinal study, since it was based upon both a study of 80,000 and then on a study of 20,000 (i.e. two different studies.) I am also guessing since it was not longitudinal that their samples were different. These are, of course, guesses of mine based upon what is reported in the article since I am unable at present to read the actual study.
    The study is a meta-analysis of the existing data on sex differences for (presumably) all age groups.
    IQ is found to be stable from middle-late childhood to adulthood.
    Stable yes, but the emergence of genetic factors during this time period (heritability of intelligence increases as a function of age) serves as a modifying factor, especially when dealing with group differences. It is during this time when IQ differences between Whites and Blacks, adopted children and their non-biological parents, left and right handers, and, apparently, men and women, become more clearly defined.
    but by studying college students you are already limiting yourself to a portion of the population that are of at least average intelligence (and higher) which means that you are more likely to find a difference than if you tested the general population.
    True, although the study, being a meta-analysis, did not simply include college students. They stated that differences began to emerge at 14 years, not 18.
    My guess is that in the general population, there is no significant difference between men and women's IQ's, but as IQ rises, also does a difference. This is the most probable conclusion of the findings of the above study (without having actually read it.)
    No, the conclusions of the study are:
    1) males are more intelligent (on average) than females, and that this differences is approximately 5 IQ points.
    2) males have a higher IQ standard deviation (are more varied) than females.

    Supplementary data:
    Sex-related differences in general intelligence g, brain size, and social status
    Helmuth Nyborg,
    Department of Psychology, Research Unit for Differential Psychology, University of Aarhus, 8000 Aarhus C, Denmark
    Received 24 November 2003; revised 9 March 2004; accepted 7 December 2004. Available online 8 June 2005.
    Abstract
    "The question of a sex difference in intelligence has long divided the experts. IQ researchers sum standardized subtest scores to calculate intelligence in general, and find that males outscore females by about 3.8 points, whereas factor analysts derive the g factor scores from intertest-correlations and find no consistent sex differences in general intelligence. The latter finding is puzzling, as males have larger average brains than females, and brain size correlates .30–.45 with g (and IQ). Males thus “ought” to score a higher g than females.
    The present study addressed this paradox by testing four hypotheses: (1) Inadequate analyses explain why researchers get inconsistent results, (2) The proper method will identify a male g lead, (3) The larger male brain “explains” the male g lead, (4) The higher male g average and wider distribution transform into an exponentially increased male–female ratio at the high end of the g distribution, and this largely explains male dominance in society.
    All four hypotheses obtained support and explain in part why relatively few males dominate the upper strata in all known societies. The confirmation of hypothesis 3 suggests that the brain size—intelligence–dominance link may be partly biological."

    (Full text of study provided upon request)

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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    Some of the internet IQ tests are odd. My brother did one which asked for gender (maybe they all do); out of interest, he tried it again, giving the same answers to each question but entering as female. He got a higher score.

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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    New research says: 5.5 times more men than women have an IQ above the threshold for genius.

    Men have a wider spread indeed. And this also goes for creativity, which is why you'll always see much more men than women among the top writers, painters, composers, etc. Just a fact of life. And this blows the feminist/Marxist "We're all identical so any differences between groups shows evil oppression is at work" sky high.

    Also, the White race has a wider IQ spread than all other races, ensuring much more geniuses. But I bet everybody here knows that already.

  6. #16
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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by Ventrue
    Also, the White race has a wider IQ spread than all other races, ensuring much more geniuses. But I bet everybody here knows that already.
    Ashkenazic Jews...?

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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    I got the article.

    Anyhow, it is 2:30 a.m. and I am supposed to be sleeping, not reading articles! I'd post some quick quotes from it tonight, except that there is never an easy way to copy/paste from .pdf files.

    Just a quick one to let you know..... the analysis was confined to studies that used the Progressive Matrices on University students.

    I'll try and post some more tomorrow. I need to go sleep.

    Some links on the type of IQ test used in the studies:

    http://www.cps.nova.edu/~cpphelp/RSPM.html

    http://www.wilderdom.com/intelligenc...mpleTests.html
    "I do not know what horrified me most at that time: the economic misery of my companions, their moral and ethical coarseness, or the low level of their intellectual development." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    No, the conclusions of the study are:
    1) males are more intelligent (on average) than females, and that this differences is approximately 5 IQ points.
    2) males have a higher IQ standard deviation (are more varied) than females.
    It appears I was mistaken.

    Contrary to past findings, the Lynn Irwing study finds Females to have more IQ variance.

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    Post Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    This is my findings and thoughts of the study. Anything directly from the study is quoted and/or cited.

    The study covered 22 studies that used the Progressive Matrices on University students. The findings, as mentioned in the original article above, were about 5 points higher for males than female ("4.6 points" to be exact.) This is the IQ difference on the progressive matrices IQ test which measures primarily g or general intelligence. This test (for those who haven't read up on IQ tests) is much different than tests such as the Wechsler tests. The Progressive Matrices test is entirely a non-verbal measure of intelligence, whereas test such as the Wechsler (and even most internet tests) have a both a verbal and non-verbal component. I suggest, for anyone interested, in reading up on different IQ measures.

    One thing that I found interesting was that "It will be noted that in all samples, males obtained a higher mean than females, with the single exception of the Van Dam (1976) study in Belgium. This is based on a sample of science students. Females are typically uncommon among science students and are not representative of all female students, and this may be the explanation for this anomalous result." This is interesting, because it goes along with what the authors reported as being the main practical significance in the reported IQ difference. "The small male advantage in g is, therefore, likely to be of most significance for tasks of high complexity such as 'complex problem solving in mathematics (Benbow, 1992), engineering and physics (Lubinski, Benbow, & Morelock, 2000), and in other areas calling for high spatial ability (Shea, Lubinski, & Benbow, 2001)' (Nyborg, 2003, p. 215)." These last two quotes are not surprising at all. Many studies find differences between males and females abilities in math and visuo-spatial skills (Maccoby and Jacklin, 1974; Maccoby, 1984; Voyer, Voyer, & Bryden, 1995). In a 2000 study from the U.S. Department of Education, boys averaged higher than girls in math and science. Given all of this, it is not surprising that boys would out score girls on an IQ test for non-verbal abilities. Some experts believe that the significance is over exaggerated if you consider the overlap of scores (Hyde, 1993). For example, while males outperform females on average in math performance, the distribution of scores almost entirely overlaps, with many females outperforming males.

    The study by Irwing and Lynn (as pointed out by Tore) found greater variance in IQ scores for females than for males. This finding was contrary to previous findings and the authors explain the possible discrepancy by saying that this study focused on college students, whereas previous studies look at the general population which includes mentally retarded individuals. They did point out that it is "not clear" whether males overrespresent the mentally retarded population (although there have been studies that suggest this.) The variability of scores is an important aspect, because if males in the general population have a greater variability, then it means that there are more males at both the high and low ends of the range of IQ scores (Irwing & Lynn, 2005). In this study of University students, women were found to have greater variability.

    I think the fact that Irwing and Lynn recognize the fact that at least one of their results could have been found because their sample was limited to a sub-set of the population (i.e. University students), then it is also probable that other results also could be due to this same limiting agent. As I pointed out in my previous post, and I stand by it, University students are not representative of the general population in terms of intellect, because they are already a group of individuals who are of at least average intelligence. If, as IQ rises so does the males to female ratio, then it is not unthinkable that in a subset of the population that is already of average intelligence and higher, you will also find a male average that outweighs a female average. Irwing and Lynn gave how this male to female ratio comes out: "2.3:1 with IQ's of 130+, 3:1 with IQ's of 145+, 5.5:1 with IQ's of 155+." No ratio was provided for IQ scores under 130. This ratio demonstrates that with males having a 5 point advantage in IQ over females, males only begin to double women (2.3:1) at scores of 130+. Don't forget that only approximately 3% of the population even scores an IQ of 130+. (Like I said, University students are not typical of the population in regards to intelligence because they are of at least average intelligence-- and higher). Irwing and Lynn (2005) do not provide a list of the mean IQ scores from each of the samples. They DO provide it for ONE study and it shows a mean for females at 113.4, and males at 114.6.

    References:

    Hyde, J.S. (1993). Meta-analysis and the psychology of women. In F.L. Denmark & M.A. Paludi (Eds.) Handbook on the Psychology of Women. Westport, CT: Greenwood.

    Irwing, P. & Lynn, R. (2005). Sex differences in means and variability on the progressive matrices in university students: A meta-analysis. British Journal of Psychology, 96, 505-524.

    Maccoby, E.E. & Jacklin, C.N. (1974). The psychology of sex differences. Palo Alto, CA: Stanford University Press.

    Voyer, D., Voyer, S. & Bryden, M.P. (1995). Magnitude of sex differences in spatial abilities: A meta analysis and consideration of critical variables. Psychological Bulletin, 117, 250-270.
    "I do not know what horrified me most at that time: the economic misery of my companions, their moral and ethical coarseness, or the low level of their intellectual development." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

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    Re: 'Men cleverer than women' claim scientists

    The Lynn-Irwing study was not nearly as methodologically sound as one may have hoped.

    On the other hand, the Nyborg study used a much more representative sample to reach what is essentially the exact same finding.

    Clearly, more research is necessary before any definitive conclusions can be rendered.

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