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Thread: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

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    Thumbs Up Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    I remember all these loudmouthed Pan-Slavic posts about how Germany eastwards of the Elbe is mostly "Slavic"

    Originally posted by Manji on Stirpes:

    A new study on human Y chromosomes has found a strong differentiation between German and Polish Y-chromosomes. The differentiation occurs precisely at the border between the two countries, with all German and all Polish populations clustering together.

    The explanation for this phenomenon is that resettlements after WWII homogenized the two nations on an ethnic basis. Moreover, a necessary assumption is that there was little male admixture between the two peoples when they co-existed geographically.

    The differentiation is evident based on analyses both of Y-STR haplotypes and Y-chromosomal haplogroups. The main contributors to the differentiation are the higher frequency of R1a1 in Poland and correspondingly higher frequency of R1*(xR1a1) in Germany, and the presence of different haplotype clusters for haplogroup I in the two countries. The correspondence analysis between haplogroups and populations is particularly interesting:



    We see that Poles are differentiated by Germans on the basis of R1a1 and N3 (Finno-Ugrian admixture). The differentiation on the basis of I subgroups is not evident, because no downstream markers for this haplogroup were examined in this study.

    Also of particular interest is that of the two Neolithic haplogroups, J2 is associated with Germans, whereas DE* is apparently not. So, this may hint at different patte of arrival of the two haplogroups in this part of the world. This would agree with some recent results from Balkan Slavic populations, that typically found a higher-percentage of YAP (DE) lineages than J2 ones.

    Human Genetics (advanced publication online)

    Significant genetic differentiation between Poland and Germany follows present-day political borders, as revealed by Y-chromosome analysis

    Manfred Kayser et al.

    Abstract:
    To test for human population substructure and to investigate human population history we have analysed Y-chromosome diversity using seven microsatellites (Y-STRs) and ten binary markers (Y-SNPs) in samples from eight regionally distributed populations from Poland (n=913) and 11 from Germany (n=1,215). Based on data from both Y-chromosome marker systems, which we found to be highly correlated (r=0.96), and using spatial analysis of the molecular variance (SAMOVA), we revealed statistically significant support for two groups of populations: (1) all Polish populations and (2) all German populations. By means of analysis of the molecular variance (AMOVA) we observed a large and statistically significant proportion of 14% (for Y-SNPs) and 15% (for Y-STRs) of the respective total genetic variation being explained between both countries. The same population differentiation was detected using Monmonierrsquos algorithm, with a resulting genetic border between Poland and Germany that closely resembles the course of the political border between both countries. The observed genetic differentiation was mainly, but not exclusively, due to the frequency distribution of two Y-SNP haplogroups and their associated Y-STR haplotypes: R1a1*, most frequent in Poland, and R1*(xR1a1), most frequent in Germany. We suggest here that the pronounced population differentiation between the two geographically neighbouring countries, Poland and Germany, is the consequence of very recent events in human population history, namely the forced human resettlement of many millions of Germans and Poles during and, especially, shortly after World War II. In addition, our findings have consequences for the forensic application of Y-chromosome markers, strongly supporting the implementation of population substructure into forensic Y chromosome databases, and also for genetic association studies.

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    Post Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop
    I remember all these loudmouthed Pan-Slavic posts about how Germany eastwards of the Elbe is mostly "Slavic"
    Theres still fluidity from east to west. Northern Poland is Plattdeutsche, and the Slavs occupied very far west in Germany.

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    Post AW: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Some quotes by an expert :

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Warm salutations, Slavic bretheren.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Many Eastern Germans are of Slavic ancestry, ie. of the people who came from north of the Black Sea.

    They were of many phenotypes, but their genetic legacy is unquestionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    It seems that many Germans are of the eastern European variety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    But Germans like to play down the Slavic influence on them, which has been significant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Looking at latest reports, Germans carry about 30% of the same type of R1a1 as is found in Poland.

    This is a Balto-Slavic gene....not German, not Indo-European, but Balto-Slavic...introduced into Germany by Slavs.

    If 30% of Germans have Slavic MALE ancestors (I'm not even counting females here) then that DNA is still present in Germany, and could not have been diluted to any great extent.

    So yeah, the Rurh (Germans of Polish descent) and East Germany (Polabian Slavc and Sorbs) are full of Slavs who think they're Germans.

    Get it through your head that Germany is at least 1/3 Slavic...if not more...nothing you have shown us changes that, and even your outdated table doesn't prove much if all of Germany was tested (the Germanic north, Celtic south, and Slavic east).
    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Btw, you continue to post outdated data, based on small samples. Is it possible for you to grasp the concept that East Germans are different from West Germans...and that Slavic markers mostly occur in the former.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    At least 1/3 of Germans are of Slavic origin (I'm not even counting those of Celtic or Baltic origin). The fact that they mixed with other Germans of Germanic and Celtic origin doesn't mean the Slavic genetic input has lessened...in fact, latest studies show it's as great as ever...largely due to the mass migration of Germans from East Prussia, East Pomerania and Silesia. Germany is now genetically as Slavic as ever, and it's Slavic in traditionally German areas now.
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Post Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Frans_Jozef posted a realevent thread ( http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=35620 )discussing the original Garmanic nature of the area south of the Baltic, and the eventual push by many German and Germanic tribes toward the old Roman Empire, and subsequent occupation by Slavics of the former Germanic area once the area was sparsely populated. Also, the pattern of re-Germanization is explained in a plausible and substantiated way.

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    Post AW: Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    This is not about Slavic influence in Germans (which I never denied) but about loudmouthed Pan-Slavic claims.
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Post Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    It's not a black and white issue, but rather a gradient between Germanic and Slav.

    However the Pan-Slavics do tend to erode what little ground they have to stand on through their arrogance, and the chip on their shoulder which causes them to frequently spin the evidence out of any reasonable bounds to support their agenda.

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    Post Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Yeah I see also the difference between Germans and Poles.
    Germans are mostly of pure Caucasoid tall, big/hook-nosed, long-faced stature.
    They are good Nordish Meds(Nordic).
    The Poles are instead non-Mediterranid.

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    Post Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Triglav (Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski):

    I don't see a contradiction between a "significant overlap" as posited by one study and a "strong differentiation between German and Polish Y-chromosomes".

    'If the facts stand against me, so much worse for the facts.'
    --Joseph Stalin


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    Post AW: Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Übersoldat
    Triglav (Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski):




    'If the facts stand against me, so much worse for the facts.'
    --Joseph Stalin

    Coming from an individual who wouldn't acknowledge that Croats aren't the closest genetic relatives of Germans in terms of HG 2, even though a study contravened just that. This is rather rich.

    I take it that you have a problem with my formulation. Facts is all I adhere to. It's still six one way and half a dozen the other and basically amounts to the same thing. In other words, according to this study, the easternmost Germans (Rostock, Berlin, Lepizig) are halfway between westernmost Germans (Mainz, Freiburg) and easternmost Poles (Szczecin). But the methodology of the study was rather questionable and they didn't avail themselves of all the recen genetic findings.

    Here are my objections (copied from the thread which you quoted):

    1. They haven't divided R1a into the 2 varieties predominating in Slavic and Central Asian/Germanic populations, respectively. This one could actually make all the difference.

    2. They havent broken down haplogroup I into clades, I1a being fairly well represented in (Northern) Germanic populations (German or pre-German) and I1b epitomising (Southern) Slavic impact. Thic could have corroborated the previous point.

    3. They should have taken samples from the countryside instead of metropolises due to the greater mobility and foreign admixture in urban centres.
    Last edited by Triglav; Friday, July 8th, 2005 at 11:58 AM.
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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