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Thread: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

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    Post Re: AW: Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Triglav
    ...

    I take it that you have a problem with my formulation. Facts is all I adhere to. It's still six one way and half a dozen the other and basically amounts to the same thing. In other words, according to this study, the easternmost Germans (Rostock, Berlin, Lepizig) are halfway between westernmost Germans (Mainz, Freiburg) and easternmost Poles (Szczecin). But the methodology of the study was rather questionable and they didn't avail themselves of all the recen genetic findings.

    ....
    Point of Order, 'eastermost Poles'?

    Stettin (Szczecin) is a German city, right on the present legal border with Germany, they look pretty much like the Germans in Greifswald, Pasewalk, & Stralsund, and speak German, otherwise I would have been out of luck communicating while hanging out and having a shopping trip there.

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    Post AW: Re: AW: Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesritter
    Point of Order, 'eastermost Poles'?

    Stettin (Szczecin) is a German city, right on the present legal border with Germany, they look pretty much like the Germans in Greifswald, Pasewalk, & Stralsund, and speak German, otherwise I would have been out of luck communicating while hanging out and having a shopping trip there.
    It's high time you bought a map of Europe, my American friend (sorry, I couldn't bite back that stereotypical remark ). Only ethnic Poles were included in the study. Besides, Szczecin clusters with the rest of Poland, and, unlike Germany, Poland is pretty homogenous in terms of Y-chromosomal DNA. But why believe me? Read the study and draw your own conclusions.

    I was in Szczecin a few years ago as well and no bloody soul spoke German, so I don't know what you're driving at, but that's irrelevant anyway.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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    I think some people should learn to read whole reports rather than jump to conclusions from snippets found on Dieneke's forum.

    A great many Germans are of Slavic descent, of Sorbian, Pomeranian and Obodrite Slavic descent. This report proves that.

    You see, Zyklop, Poles and the Slavs further west weren't exactly identical. That's why the similarity between Poles and today's east German is not a perfect match. Over the centuries those differences in the STRs have increased, because they mutate quite quickly.

    In other words, if east Germany had stayed Slavic and exactly the same test was done today, you'd still get differenecs between Poles and the Germans...Slavic Germans. And if you add some west European blood, then the differences become greater.

    Here's a quote from the above report...read it carefully word for word, and you will see it's precisely what I said above.

    We therefore conclude that Y-chromosome differences between Eastern and Western Germany might be more likely due to more ancient events in the history of European populations, namely a higher eastern European (i.e. Slavic) influence in Eastern (but less in Western) Germany and the higher western European influence in Western (but less in Eastern) Germany. A strong Slavic influence on todays Eastern German territory is well documented, e.g. by the Slavic names of many villages or towns that are not found in Western Germany or by the higher frequency of surnames with Slavic origin in Eastern Germany compared with Western Germany.
    In fact, this proves that most of the similarities between Poles and Germans are because of ANCIENT Slavic blood, and not because of more recent Polish migration to Germany.

    Hmmm...interesting.

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    Post Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Ok, if anyone's actually interested in facts, then here they are...

    GERMANS DON'T LIVE IN SZCZECIN. That city is populated by Polish post-WWII migrants from Belorussia and Lithuania. THAT'S A FACT. And more people speak English in Szczecin than German thank you very much.

    Whoever made that claim in this thread, please, PLEASE, inform yourself better before making comments in public.

    Now onto the study, which MUST be read as a whole. Dienekes' summations often give a very skewed view of reports. Trust only the official version written by the people who did the study.

    Here's a quote that was not included in Dienekes' summation...

    We therefore conclude that Y-chromosome differences between Eastern and Western Germany might be more likely due to more ancient events in the history of European populations, namely a higher eastern European (i.e. Slavic) influence in Eastern (but less in Western) Germany and the higher western European influence in Western (but less in Eastern) Germany. A strong Slavic influence on todays Eastern German territory is well documented, e.g. by the Slavic names of many villages or towns that are not found in Western Germany or by the higher frequency of surnames with Slavic origin in Eastern Germany compared with Western Germany.
    This means that comparing Poles to Germans, and then saying Germans are hardly Slavic is a ridiculous simplification.

    The reason? Slavs in Germany were not the same people as the Slavs in Poland, and if east Germany remained Slavic, a study like this would still find differences between Poland and east Germany.

    Are any of you (apart from Triglav of course ) aware that STRs mutate fast?

    The Slavic STRs in Germany have largely become different from the Slavic STRs in Poland, because they seperated a while back.

    Just read this quote again....


    Quote:
    We therefore conclude that Y-chromosome differences between Eastern and Western Germany might be more likely due to more ancient events in the history of European populations, namely a higher eastern European (i.e. Slavic) influence in Eastern (but less in Western) Germany and the higher western European influence in Western (but less in Eastern) Germany.


    Poles and east German Slavs have been separate entities for a while, with no intermixing, thus, this is how things look....

    Poland, east Germany and Norway all have their own unique combos of R1a1.

    However, Poland and east Germany are more similar because of their shared Slavic heritage...BUT they're certainly not identical...

    See my graphs in this thread!!! They prove my point!!!

    http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=4142

    All of this shows us that, at least in the YHRD and this study, Polish migrant lineages in Germany have not been all that important. The major Slavic heritage in Germany is ANCIENT Slavic heritage. And that ANCIENT Slavic heritage is still a major factor in Germany.

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    Post Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    ....

    Whoever made that claim in this thread, please, PLEASE, inform yourself better before making comments in public.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Triglav
    It's high time you bought a map of Europe, my American friend (sorry, I couldn't bite back that stereotypical remark ). Only ethnic Poles were included in the study. Besides, Szczecin clusters with the rest of Poland, and, unlike Germany, Poland is pretty homogenous in terms of Y-chromosomal DNA. But why believe me? Read the study and draw your own conclusions.

    I was in Szczecin a few years ago as well and no bloody soul spoke German, so I don't know what you're driving at, but that's irrelevant anyway.
    Well, you should tell the people in Stettin they do not speak German - to be fair, I'm certain they would also have spoken with me and my German friends in Polish if we spoke that language, or me in English if they had spoken it (about half of the *Poles* here I got a Surname from had either an obviously German last name, or one common on both sides of the border, the others sounded unquestionably Polish).

    I certainly do not need a map of Europe with regard to this, I was physically in Stettin and lived right across the border, and am stating what I saw when I was there. Play the 'ignorant American' trump card if you would here, but I do not think it will win that many points for you.

    I am certainly not Anti-Slavic, far from it, I simply find Poles glorifying and justifying their gain of the table scraps of land Stalin gave them, or other incessant twisting of the facts and use of pseudo-science rather distasteful.

    My original point in posting in this thread however was the observation that the populations did not seem at all different on either side of the border, from Rostock past Stettin, except for an element of gracile dark red haired people I did not see in Germany.

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    Post AW: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Todesritter, that was certainly no swipe at you, but your post would be best categorised as completely off topic. Let me attempt to show you why. I know you from before and I know you harbour no ill-will towards Slavs (Gorostan from TNP here ). Having said this, let us take a crack at the issue in hand.

    Each time someone posts a genetic study, some people who haven't the faintest idea about population genetics will feel the urge to pipe up. And they mostly go on about – you’ve guessed it – politics. Something that is absolutely nongermane to science. And some people (including you, obviously) don’t even know who gets studied in projects like these (only natives, otherwise the study is useless). These people didn’t bother to familiarise themselves with the nature of partilineal markers before throwing in their two cents, and, believe it or not, oftentimes didn’t even read the studies themselves. But they don’t hesitate to grace these boards with their opinions. It’s hard to believe, but this is the rule rather than an exception. It’s really becoming too tiring and there seems to be no end to this, hence one’s patience becomes quickly exhausted.


    Well, you should tell the people in Stettin they do not speak German - to be fair, I'm certain they would also have spoken with me and my German friends in Polish if we spoke that language, or me in English if they had spoken it (about half of the *Poles* here I got a Surname from had either an obviously German last name, or one common on both sides of the border, the others sounded unquestionably Polish).
    Okay, but this has absolutely nothing to do with genetics. Nada. We're talking genetics (or at least we’re trying to) – not someone’s interest in learning foreign languages. Most Icelanders speak English. What does that say about their genes? You’ve guessed it: nothing.


    I certainly do not need a map of Europe with regard to this, I was physically in Stettin and lived right across the border, and am stating what I saw when I was there.
    I'm really happy for you, but this still really hasn’t got anything to do with the underlying issue. Feel free to share your travelling experiences with other members, but this is extraneous to the genetic make-up of both Poles and Germans.


    Play the 'ignorant American' trump card if you would here, but I do not think it will win that many points for you.
    No problem. You should just try not to live up the stereotypes. I must admit that this remark was somewhat caustic. However, was yours really necessary? But let me try to illustrate what your claim sounded like:

    New York is a Canadian city.
    In Shanghai they speak Japanese.
    Paris is in Spain.

    Catch my drift? Well, you obviously do know that Szczecin is located in Poland and by now you should have caught on to the fact that only Poles were sampled in Poland. Makes sense, doesn’t it?

    I am certainly not Anti-Slavic, far from it,
    Never doubted it.

    I simply find Poles glorifying and justifying their gain of the table scraps of land Stalin gave them, or other incessant twisting of the facts and
    World history started before the beginning of the 19th century, but this issue was flogged to death a bazillion times before and I have no interest in raking it up again. Once more: you're politicising the issue and digressing.

    use of pseudo-science rather distasteful.
    Distasteful pseudo-science, yep. I did address that issue, didn't I? This is about genetics. Period.

    My original point in posting in this thread however was the observation that the populations did not seem at all different on either side of the border, from Rostock past Stettin, except for an element of gracile dark red haired people I did not see in Germany.
    Okay, though you wrote more than just that. The study did actually show that Poland is more similar to East Germany than West Germany. That’s undisputed.
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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    Post Re: AW: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Triglav


    Okay, though you wrote more than just that. The study did actually show that Poland is more similar to East Germany than West Germany. That’s undisputed.
    Right....

    Quote Originally Posted by Triglav
    ...

    ... and easternmost Poles (Szczecin)... '

    ....
    It was the 'easternmost Poles' thing that caught my attention, Szczecin/Stettin is right smack on the border, in present day western Poland, if they are Poles then, how are they 'easternmost'?

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    Post AW: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    I really don't intend to sound too harsh in my replies, but it seems I always have to repeat certain things over and over again, and that is simply becoming unbearable.
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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    Post Re: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Ok, if anyone's actually interested in facts, then here they are...
    Nobody is interested in your idiotic agenda and rants on alleged Slavic origin of Germans.

    Keep insults out of this area, please.
    Last edited by Aeternitas; Sunday, July 10th, 2005 at 01:40 AM.

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    Post AW: Re: AW: Strong Genetic Differentiation Between Germans And Poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesritter
    Right....


    It was the 'easternmost Poles' thing that caught my attention, Szczecin/Stettin is right smack on the border, in present day western Poland, if they are Poles then, how are they 'easternmost'?
    Mea culpa. Got too confused from all those directions, cut me some slack. It should read:

    In other words, according to this study, the easternmost Germans (Rostock, Berlin, Lepizig) are halfway between westernmost Germans (Mainz, Freiburg) and westernmost Poles (Szczecin). But the methodology of the study was rather questionable and they didn't avail themselves of all the recen genetic findings.
    There.
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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