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Thread: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Interesting article, thanks Atlanto.

    But I think its clear now what Brace meant:


    So the Neandertalids are not more associated with Europeans, than f.e. the Upper Palaeolithic Europoids.

    The Europids are just NEARER to the Neandertalids than any other population, which is something known, and the reason because Coon stated a possible mixture of sapiens with neandertalensis at least for the so called Upper Palaeolithic races/survivors of his taxonomy.
    But now we know that this is not true, and of course the early Europoids aremore related to other sapiens than to neandertalensis generally speaking.

    Just from the sapiens the Europeans are closer to neandertalensis than f.e. some other examples.

    At least thats what I read out of the article.

    The pictures Brace provided are somewhat misleading at the first look.

    I read the first of the dendrograms as suggesting that Europeans hybridised with Neanderthals so that we inherited features from them, which we do not share with Upper Paleolithic Europeans. That they had not yet hybridised, but that modern Europeans are hybrids. Perhaps as the climate became colder again, Neanderthal genes were better suited to the environment and hybrids were more successful. Then the Upper Paleolithic survivors were forced to the margins.

  2. #32
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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    I read the first of the dendrograms as suggesting that Europeans hybridised with Neanderthals so that we inherited features from them, which we do not share with Upper Paleolithic Europeans. That they had not yet hybridised, but that modern Europeans are hybrids. Perhaps as the climate became colder again, Neanderthal genes were better suited to the environment and hybrids were more successful. Then the Upper Paleolithic survivors were forced to the margins.
    Well, you can speculate in that direction but it is not implicit in the Dendrogramm.
    It is as well very unlikely from all what we know.

    And the reason because UP are more similar to Ainuids etc than to Europeans is, that many of them were reduced, gracilized over time and other waves of Europids came in and superimposed themselves over most part of Europe even before the Neolithization.

    The Neandertals are (as has been said in the article too) much more dissimilar to modern Europeans than UP or Mongolids.
    They are just more similar to the Neandertals THAN the UP or Mongols which is due selection of an narrowish Europid type and is no direct genetical link.
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  3. #33
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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    The Neandertals are (as has been said in the article too) much more dissimilar to modern Europeans than UP or Mongolids.

    There are more differences between modern Europeans and Neanderthals than similarities, but he found important similarities which need to be explained.


    They are just more similar to the Neandertals THAN the UP or Mongols which is due selection of an narrowish Europid type and is no direct genetical link.

    Are you suggesting that the similarities are through adaptation to climate?

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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    There are more differences between modern Europeans and Neanderthals than similarities, but he found important similarities which need to be explained.

    Are you suggesting that the similarities are through adaptation to climate?
    Mainly by adaptation/selection and partly by chance.

    There are features (f.e. prominent nose) which are advantageous in many climates but especially in the temperated ones.
    Just think about the Silvid Amerindians in a temperated climate in North America.

    And the similarities between Europids and Neandertalids are just rough, superficial ones.
    Just think about the Fossa Canina and other typical Neandertalid traits (see pic above) which are not inherited in the Europid stock.
    Furthermore the Europeans are more progressive and developed from the primitive sapiens form than f.e. Australide, Melaneside or Fuegide (Part of the Amerindians of South America)

    There are no significant signs and you can just come to the conclusion that the Europeans are much more similar than other non-foetalized/paedomorphic human races to the neandertalensis if you have some, lets say creativity in working with the data...

    The Europeans have not just rough similarities with neandertalenses but even more features than other races which are totally untypical and so far away as possible from neandertalensis:

    F.e. jaws and chin, orthognathy, orbits, nose root, teeth, morphology of the skeleton is also not influenced in any way by the Neandertalids etc, etc...

    This are not all things which were measured but are even more important than things which are pure adaptations due climate or size differences.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Friday, January 16th, 2004 at 10:35 PM.
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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    There are features (f.e. prominent nose) which are advantageous in many climates but especially in the temperated ones.
    Just think about the Silvid Amerindians in a temperated climate in North America.

    The prominent nose entered the Americas with the Kennewick type from East Asia before Europeans and North-East Asians were seperate. Therefore, the prominent nose would be a sign of Magdalenian/Gravettian descent, and the Magdalenian and Gravettian races have been interpreted to show a re-emergence of Neanderthal features.

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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    The prominent nose entered the Americas with the Kennewick type from East Asia before Europeans and North-East Asians were seperate. Therefore, the prominent nose would be a sign of Magdalenian/Gravettian descent, and the Magdalenian and Gravettian races have been interpreted to show a re-emergence of Neanderthal features.
    I know that, but the Silvids have even a bigger nose than the many other Amerindian types, they developed a even stronger nose with high root in America I think.

    The other features I mentioned cannot be consistent with the idea of strong Neandertalid admixture.
    Furthermore, although the nose of the Europeans and some other populations of Eurasia/America was/is quite big, the form is totally different from that of the Neandertalids.

    There is not the slightest evidence for a successful interbreeding of sapiens with neandertalensis. On the big scale (like it would be necessary to influence so many Eurasian groups) it is not just unlikely but impossible.
    And that just from the morphological point of view not thinking about the genetic evidence and problems...
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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    I know that, but the Silvids have even a bigger nose than the many other Amerindian types, they developed a even stronger nose with high root in America I think.
    I will take you're word for it, because I didn't even know which were Margids and which were Sylvids until you showed me. I know its a European preservation board, but perhaps someone should post examples of all American racial types?

    The other features I mentioned cannot be consistent with the idea of strong Neandertalid admixture.
    Furthermore, although the nose of the Europeans and some other populations of Eurasia/America was/is quite big, the form is totally different from that of the Neandertalids.
    The form of the Neanderthal nose is usually interpreted as large and hooked as in Armenids or Dinarids.

    There is not the slightest evidence for a successful interbreeding of sapiens with neandertalensis.
    I would argue that there are intermediates in Europe, such as Combe Capelle. I also would argue, that features of some modern populations such as the occipital bun are evidence of some Neanderthal admixture. Although it doesn't directly relate to physical type, tool industries also show intergrading.

    On the big scale (like it would be necessary to influence so many Eurasian groups) it is not just unlikely but impossible.
    And that just from the morphological point of view not thinking about the genetic evidence and problems...
    What are the problems from genetics? Mungo Man is obviously of the same type as modern Australians but the Mungo population's mitochondrial DNA seems like it didn't pass on to modern Australians.

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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    I will take you're word for it, because I didn't even know which were Margids and which were Sylvids until you showed me. I know its a European preservation board, but perhaps someone should post examples of all American racial types?
    I am mainly familiar to the main racial types of the Amerindians but not with all, of course that would be nice. Its really hard to find pictures of the Amerindian races though.

    The form of the Neanderthal nose is usually interpreted as large and hooked as in Armenids or Dinarids.
    Large yes, but hooked normally not and so broad and in a way formed that it is more typical for an Australid than an Europid.

    I would argue that there are intermediates in Europe, such as Combe Capelle. I also would argue, that features of some modern populations such as the occipital bun are evidence of some Neanderthal admixture. Although it doesn't directly relate to physical type, tool industries also show intergrading.
    If you find special tools you can work with or copy them...that has nothing to do with interbreeding. I dont think that the Neandertalids were too intelligent, but they much have been intelligent enough for that, and for sure sapiens was.

    I posted the pictures of Combe Capelle which is a pure Protoeuropid/Australoid form, nothing is Neandertalid about this type. I dont have a good profile picture but he has none of the important features the Neandertalids have.

    There is no way to interpret him as a intermediate type. And funny thing, but the occipital bun is more often observed under Negrids than in Europe...maybe Neandertalids too?

    What are the problems from genetics? Mungo Man is obviously of the same type as modern Australians but the Mungo population's mitochondrial DNA seems like it didn't pass on to modern Australians.
    For sure even modern human populations can die out or change its character, but the Neandertalids were never (at least not proven until now) in a modern sapiens population. They didnt developed themselves in that direction and there is no example of successful interbreeding. (successful would mean over generations)
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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    What should be "Neandertaloid" or even "neandertaliform" be about Combe Capelle?
    Hes showing the typical traits of the early human narrowhish variants.

    I saw this skull in reality (a copy in a museum) too, and I saw the Neandertalid skull...the difference is just huge in every regard.

    And I saw skulls of all human races, and I can say, none of this races shown any realy Neandertal traits, they were much different but the difference was never to some extent so big as to the Homo neandertalensis.
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    Post Re: Study: Human DNA Neanderthal-Free

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Large yes, but hooked normally not and so broad and in a way formed that it is more typical for an Australid than an Europid.

    Some Caucasoids do have broad noses (and the Ainu nose is certainly wide). But, even if the nose of Neanderthals was not convex then Neanderthal-like cranial features are found in a less extreme form among some Caucasoids (Dinarids, Armenids).


    I posted the pictures of Combe Capelle which is a pure Protoeuropid/Australoid form, nothing is Neandertalid about this type. I dont have a good profile picture but he has none of the important features the Neandertalids have.

    What is Australoid about Combe Capelle?
    Last edited by morfrain_encilgar; Sunday, January 18th, 2004 at 08:35 AM.

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