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Thread: The Indo-European and Possibly Germanic Origins of the Picts

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    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf
    The Pictii are indeed an interesting subject. My take on them from my readings is that they were the native Celtic or Celticized descendants of the Caledonian tribes described by Tacitus in Agricola. I believe it's been postulated that they spoke a now-defunct Brythonic Celtic language similar in nature to that spoken by the Britons. The theory is that the 'Pictish' culture and language were replaced by that of the Gaelic Scotti invaders from Ireland that eventually expanded from their kingdom of Dal Riata to take over Pictland as well, founding what's now Scotland in the 10th century, or so I seem to remember from reading.
    Hmmm, my problem with the picts speaking an IE language is just that their society seemingly was ordered around concepts clearly non IE (matriarchal, serpent symbolism/worship) St.Patrick needed a translator to talk with them, as their language was referred to as being seperate from P & Q Celtic, backed up by the fact that the (admittedly small) corpus of Pictish scripts still remains untranslatable to this day, and many personal names and place names are pre IE in origin (Thames, etc)

    Who can say what physical type best represented the Picts, though again I lean toward that small, dark "Iberian" type, as that type seems to have been prevalent in Britain since ancient times, though there clearly were large, fair people in Scotland at that time, as the Romans fought them...

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    Several Pre-Christian IE societies were matriarchal in nature.
    "Lännen älymystö on surullista kyllä epäonnistunut tehtävässään puolustaa läntisiä arvoja, kuten rationalismia, sosiaalista moniarvoisuutta, ihmisoikeuksia, laillisuutta, edustuksellista valtiovaltaa, individualismia (siinä mielessä, että jokainen yksilö on tärkeä, eikä ketään tulisi uhrata jonkin utopistisen kollektiivisen päämäärän hyväksi), ilmaisunvapautta, uskonnonvapautta ja vapautta olla uskomatta, vähemmistön oikeuksia ja niin edelleen. Sen sijaan nk. islam-asiantuntijoista lännen yliopistoissa, medioissa, kirkoissa ja jopa valtion virastoissa on tullut islamin uskonpuolustajia. He ovat omalta osaltaan vastuussa sellaisen intellektuaalisen terrorismin ilmapiirin luomisesta, jossa kaikkinainen islamin kritiikki julistetaan fasismiksi, rasismiksi tai orientalismiksi. He ovat omalta osaltaan vastuussa yleisön tuudittamisesta siihen uskomukseen, että islamin uhka on vain myytti... Velvollisuutemme on puolustaa vapaamielisen demokratian arvoja."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseman
    Several Pre-Christian IE societies were matriarchal in nature.
    Which ones? I was always under the impression that, in general, the pre-IE peoples were matriarchal, but the IE migrations supplanted this with their patriarchal system.

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    You mean related to the Basques?

    Quote Originally Posted by SURT

    Who can say what physical type best represented the Picts, though again I lean toward that small, dark "Iberian" type, as that type seems to have been prevalent in Britain since ancient times, though there clearly were large, fair people in Scotland at that time, as the Romans fought them...

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    That pic is neat


    Jac

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thiudans
    You mean related to the Basques?
    I mean that whoever they were, they were of the same vintage (if you like) as the Basques more than likely it seems to me. (Of the original small, dark European strain)

    Can't say I base that opinion on anything solid, as I don't believe I have ever seen or heard of any relevant genetic studies being carried out in this regard.

    Have you known of any qualifiable efforts to place the Pictish language into a language family? Or does it remain unclassifiable like Etruscan?

    On a humourous note, someone's theory that the band AC/DC best represented the Pictish "type" :laugh: ...
    http://dodona.proboards35.com/index....num=1093125740

    Though I suppose that, all things considered, it is a little simplistic to try to pigeon-hole them into one pure population, by the time the Picts were established as a distinct ethnicity/nation they were probably a stable blend of the older dark iberian types along with fair "celtic" types

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseman
    Several Pre-Christian IE societies were matriarchal in nature.
    Thats absolute nonsense. Even matrilinearity was the exception, but did occur of course, matriarchy after the classical definition (Bachofen) probably never existed in Europe and for sure it is not proven in IE groups, impossible in late IE groups after what we know even before Christianity.
    You should distinguish matrilinearity and matriarchy.
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    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    You should distinguish matrilinearity and matriarchy.
    guilty as charged.

    Matrilinearity.

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    Who were the Picts?

    I made this thread to attempt to gather as much information as possible together about the Picts. I really don't know about this ancient group, and it appers that no one really does. What did they look like? What language did they speak? Were they Indo-European? Were they Celtic? I haven't been able to find much about them, but I'll start by sharing this link.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts

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    Re: Who were the Picts?

    I would say that the placenames say it the most eloquently. Aberdeen is in the centre of Pictland, and bears a very 'Welsh' name.
    The Picts would appear to have been a more traditionalist British group, distinguished from the rest of the P Celtic speakers of Great Britain by their having absorbed less Roman influence due to their position beyond the limes of Hadrian's Wall [though it would be mistaken to claim no influence]. Caesar's comments on the preRomanised southern Britons having polyandry and war paint and so on seem to indicate that the Picts were only different from the latter in their cultural conservatism.

    Of course, if Celtic speech [and IE in general] is thought to have been introduced into Britain from without, some time before the Iron Age [and it's hard to argue against that], then there must have been something spoken here for millenia before that introduction, and survivals of it might most sensibly be looked for in the furthest extremities of the archipelago. The Oghams are notoriously difficult to read however, so any theorising in this direction will probably remain unproven.

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