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Thread: Russia: We Could Have Defeated The Nazis Alone

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    Russia: We Could Have Defeated The Nazis Alone

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspap...593079,00.html

    May 01, 2005

    Russia: we could have defeated the Nazis alone

    Mark Franchetti, Moscow

    WITH dozens of international leaders expected to attend, Moscow’s celebrations to mark the end of the second world war are being billed as a show of unity as well as remembrance.

    But 60 years on, Soviet army veterans are accusing Churchill of denying Russia credit for defeating the Nazis and are vowing to use the event to claim that they — not the allies — won the war.

    The role the Soviet army played in liberating Europe from the Nazis was deliberately played down in the post-war period and during the second world war,” said Filipp Bobkov, a former top KGB general who fought in the war.

    “Our allies, especially Great Britain and Churchill personally, sought to show that the main role in the victory belonged to them and Britain in particular. We showed the world we could liberate half of Europe without the allies.”

    Bobkov’s resentment is shared by many veterans who feel that Soviet heroism has not received enough attention in the West. The critics also accuse the allies and Churchill of delaying the opening of a second front with the Normandy landings while the Russians fought the Nazis in the east.

    More than 25m Soviet soldiers and civilians died in the war and Russia was the scene of some of the fiercest battles. By comparison, Britain and the United States lost fewer than 1m people.

    “The Soviets beat 607 German divisions. The allies destroyed 176,” said Georgy Kumanyov, a leading Russian historian. “They saved the world and its civilisation and at the time there was no force other than the Soviets that could have defeated the Nazis.

    “When the allies joined we could have won on our own. It’s extraordinary that such a clear-cut situation could be interpreted in any other way outside our borders.”

    No other event in Russian history inspires as much patriotism. Barely a day goes by without television airing heroic second world war films. The wave of nationalism has even led to moves to rehabilitate Joseph Stalin, the Soviet dictator accused of sending 20m people to their death. At least three cities plan to erect a monument to mark his defeat of Hitler. More than 7,000 soldiers and 4,000 veterans are to march on Red Square on May 9 in front of an estimated 50 world leaders and heads of government. “This victory cost us a lot of blood,” said Varvara Tomilina, 81, who took part in the fall of Berlin. “Nobody can deny this is a victory that belongs to the Soviet Union.”


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    Here's the more conventional view:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385548/posts

    American aid to Soviet Union, or unknown lend-lease
    Vladivostok News ^ | 2005-04-13 | By Alyona Sokolova


    Posted on 04/17/2005 12:28:21 PM PDT by Lessismore


    American History professor Hubert van Tuyll delivered several lectures in early April to Vladivostok audiences about American lend-lease shipments, half of which came through the Pacific port of Vladivostok.

    Mr. Tuyll’s visit to Russia was organized by the US State Department to commemorate the 60th anniversary of Red Army victory in World War II. Tuyll holds a degree in economics and is an assistant history professor at Augusta University, Georgia.

    His first major work, ‘Feeding the Bear: American aid to the Soviet Union in 1941-1945’, was published in 1989 and became one of the few books examining this theme.

    The Lend-Lease Act, passed by the U.S. Congress in March of 1941, gave President Franklin Roosevelt power to sell, transfer, lend or lease war supplies, including food, machinery and services, to nations whose defense was considered vital to the security of the United States during World War II. The program was originally intended for China and countries of the British Empire but in November, 1941, the USSR was included.

    About 70 percent of all U.S. aid reached the Soviet Union via the Persian Gulf through Iran and the remainder went across the Pacific to Vladivostok or across the North Atlantic to Murmansk.

    American aid to the Soviet Union between 1941 and 1945 amounted to 18 million tons of materiel at an overall cost of $10 billion ($120 billion modern) and 49 percent of it went through Vladivostok, the major Pacific port of Far Eastern Russia, Tuyll reported.

    In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag. When lend-lease shipments arrived at Vladivostok they were stored both in port terminals and in warehouses on Portovaya and Verkhne-Portovaya streets, then they were conveyed by train along the Trans-Siberian Railroad to points west. During the war the port of Vladivostok handled four times more cargo than Murmansk and Far Eastern railroad traffic was four times greater than the rest of nation.

    90 percent of lend-lease cargo was not military, however it’s impossible to talk about this U.S. government directive without mentioning the huge number of trucks, planes and tanks which were supplied by America to the Soviet Union because most of the country’s vehicles were destroyed in the first months of war, Tuyll noted.

    “Russians would just jump into the trucks which came to the Iranian border and head North,” the professor said.

    According to him, aviation was also important part of land lease and the Soviet Union received 21,000 planes for this program. P-39, or air cobra, and later its improved version called king cobra were passed to the Red Army.

    Speaking of lend lease and aid provided in accord with this program, Tuyll noted that the Soviet Union would have survived without it but the victory would not have been so complete.

    “In the first 1.5 years the Soviet Union was fighting for survival and would have won without lend lease, but further victories and movement to Europe would be questionable,” he reported.

    There were 20 million homeless, and 25 million dead, four tenth of agriculture was lost and half of the industrial production was destroyed. “If there were no lend lease the losses could have been much heavier, the war would have lasted longer and the victory was not so complete”, Tuyll concluded.

    Russians who feel proud for their victory in the Great Patriotic War were careful to hear the opinion from the other side of the world, especially nervous were war veterans. One woman, who asked not to reveal her name, shared that she came to the lecture ’nervous and agitated’ but admitted that she was pleased and satisfied with the professor’s ‘intelligent and fair’ conclusions.

    http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/BARBAROS.HTML
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    There is an interesting book, a work of fiction, in which Roosevelt is defeated in 1940 by the popular pro-German presidential candidate Charles Lindbergh. He brings the German-American Bund members into prominent positions in the US administration.

    It is largely a Zionist’s horror novel.

    I rather enjoyed it, and came to think, that even, and particularly, the anti-Stalinist Slavic people would have been better off with the outcome in the east in this scenario.

    I mention this, as aside from the 'politically-correct' horror aspect to the novel, I feel it accurately projects in some respects the consequences of the west (US at this point in history as Churchill was running out of political capital except for his ‘promises’ from Roosevelt trump-card), either intervening or not intervening to prop up the Russians in 1941-42. Certainly I respect the sacrifice of the Russian civilians, but most records show that Stalin killed more of them, than the consequences of war did, as well I respect the reckless valor of individual Russian soldiers, from the good accounts I have read of them even among their former enemies in Finland and Germany.

    The Novel: 'The Plot Against America'

    The delusion that the Soviets could have defeated the Third Reich on their own, however, particularly considering there was increasing negotiation with Imperial Japan to attack into Siberia, which would have been easy with a Pro-Axis America, is something like fiction itself, or perhaps a drug induced fantasy? I did not know that crack cocaine had made it into Russian political circles, but am relieved that America is not alone in the misery of being cursed with politicians afflicted with this weakness. :bier: 1:

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God
    Here's the more conventional view:
    What do you mean by conventional?

    Lend-lease helped, but it was by no means the deciding factor. Russia could've and would've won the war without it. The shipments only accounted for a small percentage of the Soviet Union's war-time industrial production. A drop in the ocean. Also the equipment was often inferior. A Normandy invasion done in 1942 would have been a lot more helpful, though. Might have saved a few million Russian lives.
    The only way I think the Russians could've lost the war would be if Japan had attacked the Soviet far east, instead of Pearl Harbor. Imagine a war against Germany and Japan at the same time...

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    @ Lone White Wolf.
    Most ley-people I know believe that the defeat of Germany had more to do with the opening of three fronts or to a combination of American manufacturing power and Russian man power than to the efforts of the Red army alone. That is just the perception.

    However if you had read the article I posted, you would have seen that the author agreeds with you that Russia would probably have defeated Germany or at least reclaimed her lost territory even without lend-lease, but It would just have taken longer and been at an even greater cost.

    However, It is some way away from saying that Russia would have survived without lend-lease to saying that she could have taken Berlin alone without a single ally, which is what the initial article suggested.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God
    @ Lone White Wolf.
    However if you had read the article I posted, you would have seen that the author agreeds with you that Russia would probably have defeated Germany or at least reclaimed her lost territory even without lend-lease, but It would just have taken longer and been at an even greater cost.
    Believe me, I read the article very carefully. And I agree with the statement above. But I still think it's possible that Russia could have captured Berlin without the Allies' aid. Sure, it would have taken a while and the casualties would have been VERY HIGH. But Stalin was willing to go to great lengths and sacrifice a lot of men. You never know...

    BTW, what do you think about the Allies waiting until 1944 to open a second front? Do you think it would have made more sense to do this earlier, when the Russians really needed the help?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone White Wolf
    Believe me, I read the article very carefully. And I agree with the statement above. But I still think it's possible that Russia could have captured Berlin without the Allies' aid. Sure, it would have taken a while and the casualties would have been VERY HIGH. But Stalin was willing to go to great lengths and sacrifice a lot of men. You never know...

    BTW, what do you think about the Allies waiting until 1944 to open a second front? Do you think it would have made more sense to do this earlier, when the Russians really needed the help?
    Maybe you could have helped us out with a second front in 1940.

    Oh, silly me........ :laugh:

    But yes, Russia would have won, without Western aid, eventually.

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    The Eastern Front only collapsed after the allies landed in Normandy, so without D-Day it would've taken the Soviets considerably longer to conquer Germany, that's for sure.

    Yet a scenario in which Germany and the U.S.S.R. face off without allies the Soviets could never have won against NS-Germany alone and surely would've lost. The Soviets came close to defeat on our timeline (Stalin wanted to negotiate a peace deal from August 1941 until December), on an alternative timeline in which Operation Barbarossa commences while Germany is at peace with the rest of the world there's no doubt about who the victor would be.

    Here's why, just a few things to consider:

    - During WW2 the Germans had a force of 1 million men Luftwaffe personnel operating Germany's air defenses - this million men (!!!) would've been freed up for completely other tasks, both in the Luftwaffe and the ground force invading the U.S.S.R., as strategic bombardments of German cities and industries would've been out of the question.

    - To put things into even more perspective: take for instance Norway, it was occupied by 400.000 Germans. That's another 400.000 which could've fought inside the U.S.S.R. at one point or another if Germany is at peace with the U.S.A. and Western Europe, if only as a reserve force. These guys alone could've replaced half of the losses sustained during Operation Barbarossa.

    - By 1941 there were obviously even more German troops guarding against an invasion of Western Europe (and the Balkans) than the ones guarding Norway plus an elite force of a few divisions fighting in the Afrikakorps, some of the best soldiers the Wehrmacht had, if not the very best. More troops which can now be reassigned to the Eastern Front.

    - And in reality the Germans would've had Eastern European states for allies, the ones they had historically ... the Soviets none, except entirely useless Mongolia.

    - Almost every airplane and every tank Germany had in 1941 and for as long as the war lasts could've been send to the Eastern Front, in 1941 that means several hundreds of extra airplanes and tanks are available now - it also means that the Germans can deploy a few panzer corps extra on the Eastern Front. Furthermore, Germany's war industry would've been completely unharmed for the duration of the conflict.

    I'm not suggesting Operation Barbarossa itself would've worked with a few million more men & more machines available - and in part because of the difficulty of supplying such a huge force inside of Soviet-Russia (and the Wehrmacht's logistics were notoriously bad all throughout WW2 and still reliant on trains and railways) - although Operation Barbarossa could've succeeded for any number of reasons. What I am suggesting is that the war would've eventually been won by the Germans, by 1942 the Soviets would have surely cracked and collapsed, and if not 1942, at the very latest 1943. Fall Blau would've worked splendidly, there would've been no Stalingrad, no weak flanks protectings Paulus' 6th army. And after the fall of the Kaukasus the Germans would've concentrated on a northwards movement and Moscow again and that would've been the deathblow.
    “Remember that all worlds draw to an end and that noble death is a treasure which no-one is too poor to buy.” - C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle

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    The Russians did not liberate Europe. They spread Communism from Berlin to China.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varvara Tomilina
    “Nobody can deny this is a victory that belongs to the Soviet Union.”
    I wonder whether the ~100million killed by the Soviet regime would share that sentiment...
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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