Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 33

Thread: Ancient Permic Finns were Danubian

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Väring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, April 15th, 2010 @ 07:50 PM
    Ethnicity
    Swedish
    Subrace
    Trönder/Hälsingetypen
    Country
    Sweden Sweden
    Gender
    Politics
    Racial nationalism/Nordicism
    Religion
    Non-religious
    Posts
    1,754
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    13
    Thanked in
    13 Posts

    Ancient Permic Finns were Danubian

    The evidence for the racial composition of the early Finns is scanty, but incapable of misinterpretation. One small series of ten skulls dating from about the sixth century B.C., contemporaneous with the Early Scythian period, has been identified with the ancestors of the Volga Finns at the time of their unity.4 (See Appendix 1, cot. 49.) These come from the cemeteries of Polianki and Maklacheievka, from the former Viatka government in Permian Finn country just south of the present Komi or Zyryenian Republic. The graves belonged to the so-called Anan'ino cultural horizon. This Anan'ino culture5 was formed from a combination of influences from Siberia, the Caucasus, Scythia, and Scandinavia. It did not end suddenly, but passed by a gradual process of evolution into the civilization of the historic Volga Finns. Therefore, we may consider these skulls, few as they are, to represent the ancestors of the Finns before the beginning of their historic expansion.

    This small group of seven male and three female crania is not completely homogeneous, but it is nearly so. All of the skulls are European in racial type. The faces are a little broader than in most Mediterranean groups, but not to an exceptional degree. The noses, with the exception of one extremely leptorrhine male, are mesorrhine or chamaerrhine; but so are those of many early Danubians. The cranial form is mesocephalic or dolichocephalic, with one male reaching the figure of 83; the vault is moderately high; the forehead usually straight, the browridges moderate.

    There is nothing new about these crania, and nothing specifically mongoloid. They closely resemble another small series of eight male skulls from the cemetery of Polom in the same district as the Anan'ino cemeteries6 (see Appendix I, cot. 50), dating from the ninth century A.D., and known to have been those of Finns of the Permian sub-family. In view of the small numbers, no difference can be found which would be statistically valid. A third group from the Lower Volga, representing the Mordvins of the fourteenth century, is similar to the Anan'ino and Permian crania, except that it is extremely long headed, with low indices, centered about the range from 71 to 73.

    When we make a metrical comparison between the first two groups of Finnish skulls and all European series previously studied, the find that they fit into the ranks of Iron Age Indo-European speakers without difficulty. On the whole, they resemble most nearly the larger-sized members of the intermediate group; they also resemble the Scythian crania to a considerable extent, and even more the Minussinsk skulls. They arc slightly smaller than the Germanic type, but equal to it in vault height and face breadth. In nose form and cranial height, they resemble the Neolithic Danubians.

    News of the racial position of these early Finnish skulls will come as a surprise to scholars who see in the Finns a group of mongoloid immigrants from Asia. But that they were essentially if not wholly European is, despite the paucity of Debetz's material, incontestable. Nor can one derive these Finns from forest-dwellers of Mesolithic tradition, except perhaps as a minor influence. Furthermore, in the early Anan'ino series, recognizable Corded peculiarities are to he found in but one male skull out of seven. The Finno-Ugrians, therefore, may be tentatively considered to have been, in the period before they expanded into their historic scats, Europeans of mixed origin, basically Danubian in type, with some brachycephalic element and an extremely long-headed variation as well; the latter is already familiar to us in the form of the Corded type; the former is not clearly definable, but is European. Its only discernible difference from the others in the same series is in a greater breadth of the skull. This broad-headed element is completely lacking in the late lower Volga group, of which we have only the cranial indices.

    Debetz's discovery that the Finno-Ugrian speakers were originally purely European in race, and furthermore, not local Palaeolithic or Mesolithic survivors, is in perfect accord with the present state of linguistic knowledge, which makes their form of speech one of two equally weighted elements in the basic Indo-European. They not only were, but on logical grounds must have been, in the larger sense, Mediterraneans.

    On equally logical grounds, this discovery does not invalidate the hypothesis that the descendants of Mesolithic hunters and fishers persisted until modern times in the forests of the far north, nor that some such survivors may not have been absorbed by those tribes of Finns which migrated even beyond the Permian country to the chilly drainage of the Arctic Ocean. This theory is very hard to test, however, for if we review the early racial history of the northern forest belt,' we find very little skeletal data with which to work. What material there is comes almost entirely from Latvia, Esthonia, and the Ladoga Lake country, all north and west of the historic Finnic center. It includes skulls of Corded type, both with and without mixture, and a number of ill-defined crania which do not fit into the usual European picture. Many of these latter are brachycephalic, some are perhaps, but not certainly, incipiently or partially mongoloid.

    Unfortunately, the manner in which these skulls have been published does not permit a lucid review of their racial position. Similar ones appeared sporadically in Late Neolithic and Bronze Age series in Poland and on the plains of southern Russia, apparently as intrusions from the north, but not in sufficient numbers to alter the prevailing character of the population south of the forest from which they, as the osseous headpieces of stray woodsmen, had wandered.

    Until almost three centuries after the birth of Christ, therefore, Europe, except possibly along the very Arctic rim, had not witnessed the invasion of any mongoloid people. Western Asia, from the Bosporus to the Indus, and the plains immediately east of the Caspian as well, were equally ignorant of them. But with the arrival of the Huns this gap was soon filled.
    Coon, Carleton (1939). The Races Of Europe.

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IX8.htm

  2. #2
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Last Online
    Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 @ 03:07 PM
    Gender
    Posts
    2,129
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    10
    Thanked in
    10 Posts
    Does this mean something?

  3. #3
    Member
    Son of a gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Last Online
    Tuesday, January 24th, 2006 @ 12:06 AM
    Gender
    Posts
    188
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    The one believes who wants to
    “Ihmisellä täytyy olla mahdollisuus päästä kosketuksiin sellaisten tuntojen kanssa, joiden tajuaa olevan ikuisia. Sellaisten tunteiden, joita ei voi spekuloida. Jeesus on tuntenut näin tai joku kaveri on tuntenut ihan samalla lailla tuhat vuotta sitten. Saavuttaa sellaisen yhteyden. Kävellessään jossain vuorilla, astuu ne täsmälleen samat askeleet, samat sydämenlyönnit. Se on aika mystinen kokemus. Kaikkihan miettivät, miten toimisi äärimmäisessä uhkatilanteessa tai jos kuolema on väkevästi läsnä. Kysymys on omasta päästä, miten hallita pelkoa. Pelkoa on kolmenlaista. Kuolemanpelkoa, pelkoa haavoittumisesta ja pelkoa siitä, tuleeko paska housuun.”

    Marco Casagrande, City-lehti, nro 15/2004

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Väring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, April 15th, 2010 @ 07:50 PM
    Ethnicity
    Swedish
    Subrace
    Trönder/Hälsingetypen
    Country
    Sweden Sweden
    Gender
    Politics
    Racial nationalism/Nordicism
    Religion
    Non-religious
    Posts
    1,754
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    13
    Thanked in
    13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch
    Does this mean something?
    It means that there are alternative theories about the origins of the Finns other than the usual, malicious "Mongoloid" theory which is completely devoid of any truth what so ever.

  5. #5
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Last Online
    Friday, February 2nd, 2007 @ 03:05 PM
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Iceland Iceland
    Gender
    Family
    Currently dating
    Posts
    575
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    3 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch
    Does this mean something?
    Means next time some crazed “ARYANS OF THE WORLD UNITED FOR GLORY AND AN IRANIAN DANCE LESSON” forum member tries to declare that Finns are directly descended from Mongols you have a link with the writings of the good Dr. Carleton S. Coon to proof otherwise, not that a proof is needed for most sane people anyways. eyes:

  6. #6
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Last Online
    Thursday, February 12th, 2009 @ 09:15 PM
    Ethnicity
    Other than Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    2,359
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by VÄRING
    It means that there are alternative theories about the origins of the Finns other than the usual, malicious "Mongoloid" theory which is completely devoid of any truth what so ever.
    So only now you have found that out? eyes:

    Since the article is not about Finns, but Permic Finns who live west from the Urals, I have changed the title of this thread.

    I know that in the past all Finnic peoples have incorrectly been called as Finns, but today Finn is used only from Finns, one of the Baltic Finnic nation (Baltic Finns mean Finnic peoples living around the the Baltic sea region). There is no need to repeat ancient, erroneous theories anymore.

  7. #7
    Member
    Son of a gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Last Online
    Tuesday, January 24th, 2006 @ 12:06 AM
    Gender
    Posts
    188
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Louhi
    So only now you have found that out? eyes:

    Since the article is not about Finns, but Permic Finns who live west from the Urals, I have changed the title of this thread.

    I know that in the past all Finnic peoples have incorrectly been called as Finns, but today Finn is used only from Finns, one of the Baltic Finnic nation (Baltic Finns mean Finnic peoples living around the the Baltic sea region). There is no need to repeat ancient, erroneous theories anymore.
    True!

    Besides, What the hell is Danubian?
    “Ihmisellä täytyy olla mahdollisuus päästä kosketuksiin sellaisten tuntojen kanssa, joiden tajuaa olevan ikuisia. Sellaisten tunteiden, joita ei voi spekuloida. Jeesus on tuntenut näin tai joku kaveri on tuntenut ihan samalla lailla tuhat vuotta sitten. Saavuttaa sellaisen yhteyden. Kävellessään jossain vuorilla, astuu ne täsmälleen samat askeleet, samat sydämenlyönnit. Se on aika mystinen kokemus. Kaikkihan miettivät, miten toimisi äärimmäisessä uhkatilanteessa tai jos kuolema on väkevästi läsnä. Kysymys on omasta päästä, miten hallita pelkoa. Pelkoa on kolmenlaista. Kuolemanpelkoa, pelkoa haavoittumisesta ja pelkoa siitä, tuleeko paska housuun.”

    Marco Casagrande, City-lehti, nro 15/2004

  8. #8
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Last Online
    Thursday, February 12th, 2009 @ 09:15 PM
    Ethnicity
    Other than Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    2,359
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Son of a gun
    True!

    Besides, What the hell is Danubian?
    Hmmm... :

    Wasn't Cosmocreator Danubian?

  9. #9
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Last Online
    Friday, December 25th, 2009 @ 01:12 PM
    Location
    K-PAX
    Gender
    Posts
    2,155
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    I think they have something to do with river Danube.

  10. #10
    Member
    Son of a gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Last Online
    Tuesday, January 24th, 2006 @ 12:06 AM
    Gender
    Posts
    188
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Louhi
    Hmmm... :

    Wasn't Cosmocreator Danubian?
    So, good old chairman was a Finn...
    “Ihmisellä täytyy olla mahdollisuus päästä kosketuksiin sellaisten tuntojen kanssa, joiden tajuaa olevan ikuisia. Sellaisten tunteiden, joita ei voi spekuloida. Jeesus on tuntenut näin tai joku kaveri on tuntenut ihan samalla lailla tuhat vuotta sitten. Saavuttaa sellaisen yhteyden. Kävellessään jossain vuorilla, astuu ne täsmälleen samat askeleet, samat sydämenlyönnit. Se on aika mystinen kokemus. Kaikkihan miettivät, miten toimisi äärimmäisessä uhkatilanteessa tai jos kuolema on väkevästi läsnä. Kysymys on omasta päästä, miten hallita pelkoa. Pelkoa on kolmenlaista. Kuolemanpelkoa, pelkoa haavoittumisesta ja pelkoa siitä, tuleeko paska housuun.”

    Marco Casagrande, City-lehti, nro 15/2004

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Good example of a Danubian Mediterranid?
    By Theudiskaz in forum Mediterranid
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 12:06 PM
  2. Perfect Neo-Danubian?
    By Austrvegr in forum Anthropological Taxonomy
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Monday, June 5th, 2006, 12:45 PM
  3. The Ancient Religion of the Finns
    By morfrain_encilgar in forum Comparative Religion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Sunday, May 22nd, 2005, 01:47 PM
  4. Examples of Danubian predominance
    By Vojvoda in forum Europoid
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Wednesday, June 4th, 2003, 07:06 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •