Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456
Results 51 to 58 of 58

Thread: Frequency of Epicanthus in Some European Populations

  1. #51
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    Saturday, December 24th, 2005 @ 11:12 AM
    Subrace
    Other
    Location
    Everywhere
    Gender
    Age
    38
    Politics
    Non-hateful Nationalist
    Posts
    1,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that Soviet and Western anthropologists were both falsifying their data in order to make the inhabitants of the Eastern Baltic area appear more "Mongoloid" (a very doubtful proposition, in my opinion - everyone from Coon to Denisova to Mark engaged in some dark conspiracy to slander the Finns?), there is still the matter of a need for explanation why the populations of Eastern Finland, Estonia and Karelia all show Uralic morphological traits (epicanthi, decreased nasal projection, decreased hirsuteness, a high frequency of oblique eye axises and median eyefolds), why these traits follow and East-West gradient in the area and are most prominent in those areas where Uralic crania are found, and why these traits are either almost entirely absent or only weakly pronounced in the Lithuanian and Scandinavian neighbors of the Baltic Finns.

  2. #52
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    Saturday, December 24th, 2005 @ 11:12 AM
    Subrace
    Other
    Location
    Everywhere
    Gender
    Age
    38
    Politics
    Non-hateful Nationalist
    Posts
    1,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevi
    The people, as far as there is evidence, seem to be of the cromagnoid type, very large skulled with distinctively prominent nose (some even describe them as 'cromagnoid-neanderthal hybrids'!).

    That's because the purely Europid types found at Kunda cemeteries (and mind you, not all Kunda skulls are fully Europid) were a mix between Brunn-Prjedmost and Armenoidal elements.

  3. #53
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    Saturday, December 24th, 2005 @ 11:12 AM
    Subrace
    Other
    Location
    Everywhere
    Gender
    Age
    38
    Politics
    Non-hateful Nationalist
    Posts
    1,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Essentially we have two hypotheses here:

    1. Finno-Ugric languages and Uralic morphological traits arose coincidentally in the Eastern Baltic area (but failed to arise in Lithuania and Scandinavia), without any genetic input from the East, despite what genetics, paleoanthropology and linguistics tell us.

    2. Finno-Ugric languages and Uralic morphological traits in the modern population of the Eastern Baltic area are a direct result of the Mesolithic migration of Uralic ancestors of the Finno-Ugrians from the East, which is fully congruent with the genetic, linguistic, and anthrpological evidence.

    You decide which is correct.

  4. #54
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    Saturday, December 24th, 2005 @ 11:12 AM
    Subrace
    Other
    Location
    Everywhere
    Gender
    Age
    38
    Politics
    Non-hateful Nationalist
    Posts
    1,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevi
    Interesting. I recall seeing a study which told that 1/1000 of Finns have semi-mongoloid eyefolds and 1/10000 full mongoloid. And they are concentrated into north-Karelia, which has been historically a very peripheral area.

    Would you mind providing a scholarly reference to this supposed study (assuming such exists, which I greatly doubt)?

  5. #55
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    Thursday, September 25th, 2008 @ 03:16 PM
    Gender
    Posts
    440
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch
    And also, many families who used to speak Swedish decided to become Finnish-speaking decades ago, and even adjusted their surnames accordingly.
    And the opposite happened to many families between circa 1150 and 1850.
    Neither assimilation nor integration will solve the problems. The only thing that would work from my point of view would be separation. And this separation should be done on a global level, not on a communal level. The western countries here, the islamic countries there. And a very tall border between the two worlds please.

    -- Valkyrie

  6. #56
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Last Online
    Monday, November 27th, 2006 @ 03:26 AM
    Gender
    Posts
    224
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    3 Posts
    Sorry for the late answer, but I have been quite busy during the past week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    Evidence? There is an almost uninterrupted line of continuity from the Urals to the Kunda-Suomosjarvi culture of the East Baltic area during the Mesolithic.
    I haven't found more recent publications by the author, so this shall do:

    http://vip.latnet.lv/hss/denisova.htm

    In the very last part of the Paleolithic period, archaeologists have found, there was a migration of people of the Svidrian culture who reached Lithuania and Northwestern Russia. It is usually believed that these people came from Poland. There is another notable school of thought, however, which holds that the Svidrian cultural traditions were actually established in the southeastern part of the Russian plains -- the valley of the Don river where a wealth of late Paleolithic artifacts has been found (Gurina 1965).

    Archaeologists have also noted a migration of Maglemosian people during the early Mesolithic period in an eastward direction to the northwestern part of Russia. Testimony of this is provided both by settlements of these tribes which have been found in Lithuania (Rimantiene 1971, 1984) and by the effect which the Maglemosian culture had on the territory which lies adjacent to the southwestern shores of the Oneg lake. In the early Mesolithic period, things were manufactured of bone in a method that was completely identical to that used by Maglemosian people in Denmark at the same time (Oshibkina 1983).

    Thus archaeological data indicate that the migration of the Maglemosian people concluded several chronologically successive migrations of late Paleolithic peoples from the West to the East. This suggests that at the end of that period, a genetic fund was being established in populations resident in the territory that is southwest of Latvia -- the Pripet basin and the Upper Dnieper valley. This genetic fund was part of a larger genetic system of late Paleolithic residents in Northern Europe. For that reason, people who settled on lands around the Upper Dnieper and the Upper Daugava during the late Paleolithic period had close genetic links to the most ancient populations of the Middle European lowlands. That could mean that during the Mesolithic period, an anthropologically similar group of peoples lived from the Netherlands in the West to the Middle Russian highlands to the East. Local residents may have been possessed of the morphological elements of ancient Northern European peoples, whose roots were linked to the late Paleolithic populations of Europe.
    ...
    The flint industry at the Pulli, Lepakose and Zvejnieki II settlements bore distinct characteristics of post-Svidrian culture (Zagorskis, Zagorska 1977; Jaanits 1990). The flint artifacts which have been found at these settlements, moreover, are quite similar to artifacts which have been obtained in late Paleolithic and early Mesolithic settlements in northern Belarus. Of particular importance in this respect is an early Mesolithic settlement, Krumpleva, that was found near the Belarussian section of the Upper Daugava (Gurina 1960). Flint objects which were found there are completely identical to the same objects found at the Pulli settlement, and the flint used in both locations is precisely of the same color and quality. These facts have justifiably allowed Dr. K. Jaanits to describe the Krumpleva settlement as a monument to the early phase of the development of Kundian culture and the Daugava river as an important transportation route via which the most ancient populations arrived in Latvia and Estonia (K. Jaanits 1990).
    That continuity is something which is well present in the older sources, but absent in the newer ones. According to archaeologist Christian Carpelan, there has been some errors in the timings, which has led to a false belief that the Kunda culture originated from the eastern side of Lake Onego. The northern and north-eastern Russia weren't populated from Siberia either, according to him.

    The spreading of late paleolithic cultures(from Zaliznyak):

    yellow dot = Swidry settlement
    gray square = settlement of the Lyngby(Bromme) tradition
    black dot = Post-Swidry settlement
    yellow line = border of Swidry culture
    brown line = border of Lyngby(Bromme) culture
    black line = forest border
    yellow arrow = Swidrian migration
    black arrow = Post-Swidrian migration
    light brown arrow = Krasnosilljan migration
    brown arrow = Maglemosian migration


    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    First of all, these skulls were not 'Mongolic', but rather Uralic. Second of all, we have an excellent paleoanthropological record of Mesolithic people of the Kunda culture, and find well-preserved skulls, showing Uralic tendencies everywhere from the Urals to Finland. For instance, we have 20 well-preserved Mesolithic crania of the Kunda culture from the Zvenieki cemetery in Latvia.
    ...
    Evidence?
    Craniologist Markku Niskanen wrote in Muinaistutkija-magazine nr.4-1998:

    Many scholars have claimed that in the light of cranial findings, both Europid and Mongoloid types would have been present among the early inhabitants of Baltia. For example according to Denisova (1980) the Comb Ceramic population was Europid-Mongoloid hybrids, but the representatives of the Corded Ware culture were of purely Europid type. The Mongoloid-Europid type, that she considered as Finno-Ugric would had arrived to Baltia from the east.

    In the reality, the most ancient inhabitants of eastern Europe and western Siberia were craniologically Europid, and the Mongoloid traits didn't appear to western Siberia earlier than at the turn of the Bronze- and the Iron ages (Liptak 1980). It has also been claimed, that only those skulls from Olenij Ostrov that were reconstructed, are flat-faced and so artificially Mongoloid (personal comment by Kozintsev in 1991), and that the variation among the early inhabitants of Baltic is normal variation within population (personal comment by Jacobbs, 1994). According to Zagorska (personal comment, 1997) Denisova has also recently considered all of the early Baltic skulls to be morphologically Europid.
    (Original Finnish quote can be found here: http://pakana.150m.com/mongolit.htm)

    It's hard to find any reasonably recent publications about the subject, but something can be concluded about Zagorska's current opinion:

    The Zvejnieki cemetery has a special place in the study of the Stone Age inhabitants of Latvia. A large amount of palaeoanthropological material has been obtained in archaeological excavations here. The aim of our study was to reconstruct the morphology of the post-cranial skeleton of the Mesolithic inhabitants of Latvia and evaluate skeletal change in relation to environmental factors (climate, subsistence resources and ecology). The material for the study consisted of 84 of the individuals (adults and children), chronologically attributable to the Mesolithic (6th to mid-5th millenium bc). The results obtained permit the conclusion that the Mesolithic inhabitants are characterised by large dimensions of the long bones of the limbs and a robust body build. But at the end of the Mesolithic, the long bones of the adult skeletons are of small dimensions and markedly gracile. This is largely connected with increased environmental stress on the inhabitants.
    http://www.arkeologi.uu.se/meso2000/...__gerhards.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    Was Carlton Coon also falsifying his data when he extrapolated Uralic tendencies in Ladogan crania?
    I was talking about prehistory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    Essentially we have two hypotheses here:

    1. Finno-Ugric languages and Uralic morphological traits arose coincidentally in the Eastern Baltic area (but failed to arise in Lithuania and Scandinavia), without any genetic input from the East, despite what genetics, paleoanthropology and linguistics tell us.

    2. Finno-Ugric languages and Uralic morphological traits in the modern population of the Eastern Baltic area are a direct result of the Mesolithic migration of Uralic ancestors of the Finno-Ugrians from the East, which is fully congruent with the genetic, linguistic, and anthrpological evidence.

    You decide which is correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by L.L. Cavalli-Sforza in Genes, Peoples and Languages
    Other European Uralic speakers (e.g. Finns and Estonians) appear almost entirely European genetically. As to Hungarians, about 12% of their genes have a Uralic origin. The Finns, by contrast show almost no trace of genetic admixture with Uralic populations.
    It isn't even sure that the Finno-Ugric languages were spoken around the Baltic during the mesolithic; so far as I know, there's not even studies about (possible) substrates in Baltic-Finnic languages. Besides, the place of origin for all of the current Finno-Ugric languages is quite reliably proven to have been in the middle-Volga at about 3500 calBC, so I, along with the main stream of linguists, consider that to be the earliest possible timing for a Finno-Ugric language around here. I think you're straightening things too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    Would you mind providing a scholarly reference to this supposed study (assuming such exists, which I greatly doubt)?
    It's memory-based knowledge of which I'm not 100% sure even by myself, so feel free to ignore it. However, could you explain why V.V. Bunak (1965) found only about 2% epicanthus among Saami and about 0.5% among Karelians, when he still found absolutely the same percent (0.14%) among Russians as did Mark? There's almost 400% difference!

    EDIT: Ok, now I see: your percentage for Russians isn't from Mark, it's from Bunak (the fact that I didn't realize because the cyrillic alphabet). Everyone can draw their own conclusions from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    ..there is still the matter of a need for explanation why the populations of Eastern Finland, Estonia and Karelia all show Uralic morphological traits (epicanthi, decreased nasal projection, decreased hirsuteness, a high frequency of oblique eye axises and median eyefolds), why these traits follow and East-West gradient in the area and are most prominent in those areas where Uralic crania are found, and why these traits are either almost entirely absent or only weakly pronounced in the Lithuanian and Scandinavian neighbors of the Baltic Finns.
    Considering the currently known facts, I don't know for sure. I guess that it is connected with the question about how the Saami got their morphological characteristics. The Saami may have originally been living in more southern regions too, and at least people in northern Finland are mixed with them (northern Finland was settled by Finns quite late). The northern and eastern parts of Finland have historically been very peripheral; agriculture is quite young there, people have been hunter-gatherers very lately, so population sizes weren't actually very big. About a millennia ago, almost all of Finland's population was located in the southern and western areas; Finland-Proper, Häme(Tavastia) and southern parts of Karelia.
    The East Finnish people are in addition a bottleneck population. So theoretically we would need just a few Saami with a big family to explain their characteristics. I have seen with my own eyes a few people of Northern Karelian origin who had some prominent Mongoloid traits. But I'd say that in the west and south, traits like epicanthic folds are really a rarity, even in big cities with people from all over the country. Outcounting immigrants, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    Cephalic indices seem to change almost unpredictably, although it seems that urbanization and improving living conditions seem to lead to debrachycephalization.
    According to Niskanen, cephalic index is also connected with height of stature, which of course is connected with living conditions. So, as the Finnish average stature height has presently risen to about the same level with the Swedes (along with the living standards), present day Eastern Finns have more 'Nordic' cephalic indexes than the Swedes had in the 40's (Niskanen). And that must be considered when drawing conclusions from age old anthropometric studies.

  7. #57
    bittercreek
    Guest
    Sami-folk have indeed populated more southern regions of Finland. There are placenames/lake/rivernames of Sami-origin in these regions. Eno & Ilomantsi in N-Karelia to name a few. More in the link below in Finnish (google is your friend)
    http://cc.oulu.fi/~anaikio/saamnim.html
    http://cc.joensuu.fi/~loristi/1_00/pal100.html

    Sami folk didn't establish permanent settlements, but wandered from place to place depending on the season, living in winter and summer-villages.

    N-Karelians in the county nowadays known as N-Karelia are not Karelian, they speak the Savolaxid-fraction of Finnish and mainly descend from people who re-populated the areas abandoned by Orthodox Carelians who fled the area after the peace treaty of Stolbova. Very little of the original population remained, some converted to Lutherans.

    Link in Finnish http://wwww.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokoku...ismurteet.html

    http://www.rocklin.ca/karjala/kareliahistory.htm

    Karjalaiset ovat muuttaneet usein, sillä kaskiviljelijän elämä oli liikkuvaa. Myös laajat muuttoliikkeet ovat meille tuttuja. Pohjois-Karjala on autioitunut ennenkin: 1600-luvulla noin 80 prosenttia väestöstä häipyi. Tuolloin Tveriin muuttaneet karjalaiset ovat kuitenkin säilyttäneet kielensä ja kulttuurinsa jo 350 vuoden ajan.
    From: http://www.helsinki.fi/jarj/ko/PK_3_2003.PDF

    So there has been a Sami-presence in a wide area of Finland from the lake districts to the SE and so forth, would be odd to assume there has not been any intermixture. Unless there's proof that the co-existance was not peaceful.

  8. #58
    Member
    Son of a gun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Last Online
    Tuesday, January 24th, 2006 @ 12:06 AM
    Gender
    Posts
    188
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevi
    I have seen with my own eyes a few people of Northern Karelian origin who had some prominent Mongoloid traits.
    I've seen this too. There are some places in Noth Karelia, where considerable part of the population possess these traits. On the otherhand, those who don't have mongoloid traits, usually looks very "northern". In both cases, may be because small population and massive inbreeding
    “Ihmisellä täytyy olla mahdollisuus päästä kosketuksiin sellaisten tuntojen kanssa, joiden tajuaa olevan ikuisia. Sellaisten tunteiden, joita ei voi spekuloida. Jeesus on tuntenut näin tai joku kaveri on tuntenut ihan samalla lailla tuhat vuotta sitten. Saavuttaa sellaisen yhteyden. Kävellessään jossain vuorilla, astuu ne täsmälleen samat askeleet, samat sydämenlyönnit. Se on aika mystinen kokemus. Kaikkihan miettivät, miten toimisi äärimmäisessä uhkatilanteessa tai jos kuolema on väkevästi läsnä. Kysymys on omasta päästä, miten hallita pelkoa. Pelkoa on kolmenlaista. Kuolemanpelkoa, pelkoa haavoittumisesta ja pelkoa siitä, tuleeko paska housuun.”

    Marco Casagrande, City-lehti, nro 15/2004

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456

Similar Threads

  1. Genetic Differences Between Five European Populations
    By Roderic in forum Population Genetics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Monday, October 18th, 2010, 02:47 AM
  2. European Hair and Eye Color: A Case of Frequency-Dependent Sexual Selection?
    By Ahnenerbe in forum Bio-Anthropology & Human Variation
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Monday, July 20th, 2009, 11:41 PM
  3. Partial Epicanthus/Pseudo Epicanthus?
    By CrimWheat in forum Physical Anthropology
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Wednesday, February 25th, 2009, 01:46 AM
  4. Y-Chromosomal Distribution in Northern European Populations
    By Euclides in forum Y-Chromosome (Y-DNA) Haplogroups
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Wednesday, May 26th, 2004, 12:51 AM
  5. Frequency of Epicanthus among the Baltic Finns
    By Prodigal Son in forum Baltid
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 03:07 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •