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Thread: Frequency of Epicanthus in Some European Populations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louhi
    I am asking Sventovit to show studies about epicanthus in all European populations. Otherwise this thread has no reason to live very long.
    Yes, otherwise we might be tempted to think he's trying to further some hidden agenda. And we can't have that, can we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesritter
    I have worked with a Finnish GTF, at a University, who had Epicanthic folds. As this happens not infrequently with white Americans whose families have been here more than 3-4 generations, with Amerindian admixture, I normally would not take notice.
    Eh? I would say that epicathus among white Americans whose families have been here for more than 3 or 4 generations is infrequent.

    I'm not sure what you're looking at or seeing--but there are many old stock folk in my area and epicathus is found rarely to never....

    Maybe in Oklahoma where admixture is greater but in most places, Amerind influence is less than 3% and in many cases, next to zero....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    Yes, the sample consisted of Finnish citizens who self-identified as ethnic Swedes regardless of native language.
    I don't believe that at all. You are clearly making things up.

    The so-called finlandsvenskar are Finns who speak Swedish.

    You can't find Finnish-speaking people who identify themselves as ethnic Swedes.

    Also, most finlandsvenskar wouldn't identify themselves as ethnic Swedes.
    Neither assimilation nor integration will solve the problems. The only thing that would work from my point of view would be separation. And this separation should be done on a global level, not on a communal level. The western countries here, the islamic countries there. And a very tall border between the two worlds please.

    -- Valkyrie

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God
    I remember reading that all foetises of all races have epicanthic eyefoldes but loose them before birth, indicating that this is the default condition of all human eyes.
    ...
    The point I'm raising is that if the eyefold is a cold-weather adaptation which has evolved through a process of neonathany, then is it not possible that Northern-Europeans could have developed the same feature independently of Mongoloids?
    Let me think: epicanthic eyefolds are an adaptation to cold northern climate (and not necessarily mongoloid-specific), being short of stature is an adaptation to harsh environment (smaller people consume less food), blonde hair, light eyes and fair skin are an adaptation to cold and dark north with less sunlight, and broad-headedness is a result of hunter-gatherer livelihood (or narrow-headedness is a result of agriculture). So, it's not so surprising to see some people described above in the cold north-eastern corners of Europe. One doesn't need any mongoloid-migration theories to explain that. Scandinavia and the east coasts of the Baltic sea are affected by the Gulf stream and surrounded by seas, and are therefore quite warmer places than the regions east of them. Still, they are affected with the same lack of sunlight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susisaari
    I don't believe that at all. You are clearly making things up.

    The so-called finlandsvenskar are Finns who speak Swedish.

    You can't find Finnish-speaking people who identify themselves as ethnic Swedes.

    Also, most finlandsvenskar wouldn't identify themselves as ethnic Swedes.
    And also, many families who used to speak Swedish decided to become Finnish-speaking decades ago, and even adjusted their surnames accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevi
    How do you base the assumption that the Kunda culture was 'Uralic/Lapponoid'?
    On craniological data of the Mesolithic, and morphological data from descendants of this said culture.

    The Kunda culture was an eastern continuation of the Maglemöse culture (North-Germany/Denmark), so are you stating that the Lapps were the first to settle Scandinavia and Finland?
    This is false. The Kunda culture was rather aligned with the various racially Uralic Pit-Comb Pottery cultures that migated to NE Europe from the Urals, particularly the Volga area and the Eastern Baltic during the Mesolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louhi
    I am asking Sventovit to show studies about epicanthus in all European populations.
    I am not God, nor am I a dishonest provocateur. Therefore, I cannot make studies appear out of thin air, nor fabricate them. I am not aware of any studies on the frequency of epicanthus in in Swedes, Danes or Norwegians. I do, however, have data for Baltic Finns and Russians, which I posted. I also have data for many small Fino-Urgic groups in Russia, but I doubt anyone here is interested in it. I know for a fact that Western anthropologists had collected data for Germans, but I have not been able to find it, and therefore asked for anyone who may have access to such to provide it here.


    Otherwise this thread has no reason to live very long.
    Why not? Are you not interested in the anthropology of the Eastern Baltic area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevi
    Let me think: epicanthic eyefolds are an adaptation to cold northern climate
    Correct.

    (and not necessarily mongoloid-specific),
    Incorrect, in the sense that they are an unambiguous indicator of Mongoloid ancestry (although someone with epicanthic eyefolds may otherwise appear perfectly Europid and have only a negligible amount of Mongoloid ancestry).

    being short of stature is an adaptation to harsh environment (smaller people consume less food),
    Correct.

    blonde hair, light eyes and fair skin are an adaptation to cold and dark north with less sunlight
    Correct.

    and broad-headedness is a result of hunter-gatherer livelihood (or narrow-headedness is a result of agriculture).
    Actually, this point is still up for debate. Cephalic indices seem to change almost unpredictably, although it seems that urbanization and improving living conditions seem to lead to debrachycephalization.

    So, it's not so surprising to see some people described above in the cold north-eastern corners of Europe. One doesn't need any mongoloid-migration theories to explain that.
    This point is incorrect. The places of the Eastern Baltic where we can, in the mesolithic, find skulls belonging to various Uralic/Lappinoid racial types have modern populations that display conspicuous morphological deviations from other areas, which may oftentimes be quite adjacent. Thus, we see that even in small countries like Estonia, there is an East-West gradient, along which Uralic morphological traits (epicanthi, flattened facial profiles, weaker nasal skeletons, etc...) increase. Variations in climate are powerless to explain it. Paleoanthropology explains such phenomena perfectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sventovit
    On craniological data of the Mesolithic, and morphological data from descendants of this said culture.
    ...
    This is false. The Kunda culture was rather aligned with the various racially Uralic Pit-Comb Pottery cultures that migated to NE Europe from the Urals, particularly the Volga area and the Eastern Baltic during the Mesolithic.
    The Kunda culture descended from Maglemöse/Swidry cultures; the material culture spread from the west to the east, all the way to the Ural mountains, not the other way around. The people, as far as there is evidence, seem to be of the cromagnoid type, very large skulled with distinctively prominent nose (some even describe them as 'cromagnoid-neanderthal hybrids'!). Similar types that lived in Scandinavia at that period.
    And what comes to the "mongolic skulls" that have been found in the region (Olennij-Ostrov cemetery): those skulls that weren't found complete, were purposely 'reconstructed' to fit the theories that assumed mongolic components. The Soviet researchers have later admitted that theirselves.

    Yeah, the glorious Soviet science. :

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevi
    The Kunda culture descended from Maglemöse/Swidry cultures; the material culture spread from the west to the east, all the way to the Ural mountains, not the other way around.
    Evidence? There is an almost uninterrupted line of continuity from the Urals to the Kunda-Suomosjarvi culture of the East Baltic area during the Mesolithic.

    The people, as far as there is evidence, seem to be of the cromagnoid type, very large skulled with distinctively prominent nose (some even describe them as 'cromagnoid-neanderthal hybrids'!).
    LOL, prominent noses? Prominent, perhaps when compared to Chinese skulls of the same period. To be fair, Kunda cemeteries yield both skulls that appear to be completely Europid, and skulls which show unambiguous traits of the Uralic race. These skulls show marked facial flattening, weakened nasal skeletons, etc... Obviously, the descendants of these people contributed quite a hefty element to the modern populations of Eastern Finland and Scandinavia. If you can find another explanation why the modern populations of Eastern Finland and Estonia do not appear to be 'Cro-Magnoid Neanderthal hybrids' but show rather an intermediate morphological position between Lapps and Scandinavians, by all means, explain.

    Similar types that lived in Scandinavia at that period.
    Simmilar to the fully Europid types found at various Kunda culture sites - yes. However, the types obviously altered by Uralic admixture are not found West of Finland.


    And what comes to the "mongolic skulls" that have been found in the region (Olennij-Ostrov cemetery): those skulls that weren't found complete, were purposely 'reconstructed' to fit the theories that assumed mongolic components.
    First of all, these skulls were not 'Mongolic', but rather Uralic. Second of all, we have an excellent paleoanthropological record of Mesolithic people of the Kunda culture, and find well-preserved skulls, showing Uralic tendencies everywhere from the Urals to Finland. For instance, we have 20 well-preserved Mesolithic crania of the Kunda culture from the Zvenieki cemetery in Latvia.

    The Soviet researchers have later admitted that theirselves.
    Evidence? Was Carlton Coon also falsifying his data when he extrapolated Uralic tendencies in Ladogan crania?

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