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Thread: Origins of Germanic Tribes & Scandinavia

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    This has been long suspected. It's nice to have something on it finally.
    It's interesting how these types of findings always get "mixed views". Had they published that sub-saharan Africans travelled to Scandinavia in a space ship and settled there becoming the first Scandinavians there would be no mixed or negative views. Everyone would just applaud, no matter how stupid the whole story was.
    Lieber tot als Sklave!

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    To many lies

    Its to many lies and old stories around. Some of it is about politics, some of it is about religions etc. The christians struggled a long time before they eventually got traitors on the inside (Like Harald Hårfagre) of germanics to force christianity upon the germanic people. In Scandinavia it took about 1000 years more to do this then other parts of Europe.. And when the christians attacked (Danevirke was created in Denmark year 500 as a defence against christians) they eventually got attacked themselfes (Lindisfarne year 793 etc). The anger (amongst christians, the pope etc) at that time led to a policy i belive against germanic people to undermine their culture, pride, traditions, laws etc that have lasted to this day.

    In Norway we have the example of sami people (Asian releated tribe) that by politicians got a status as "the first people" and have special rights compared to people like me (Germanic tribes). It is a big lie and a shame. Sami people didnt arrive before year 400 i belive, and they had to pay taxes to stay here... They werent even allowed to live near germanic people..

    Christians portrayed germanics as bad people in every way, no wonder you could say, but the fact is that christians attacked first. It didnt help, they got slaughtered, and again it was traitors inside the germanics that used the christianty to get in power eventually.

    It just go on and on...

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I have been discussing the origins of Germanic tribes on SF with Louhi.



    This is an interesting topic. Anyone want to participate?
    The origin of Germanic tribes is in southern Sweden and northern Denmark. This is why light pigmentation is prevalent in the northern Germanic countries, in Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sjoerd View Post
    In terms of ethnic origins, The Germanic peoples did not originate in Scandinavia as many believe...rather they expanded into southern Scandinavia from the North German plain.

    The Proto-Germanic language is believed to have developed within Southern Scandinavia and Northern Germany.
    Germanic people are from the north ( Scandinavia), then they gradually moved south into the German northern plain.

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    What is Skadi's opinion about Y-haplogroups?





    For example are Scandinavian men who has Y-haplogroup R1(a/b) someway more ''Germanic'' than Scandinavian men who has I1 haplogroup?
    (The first I1 man has been existed in Denmark some 3000years ago, or?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindnightSun View Post
    What is Skadi's opinion about Y-haplogroups?





    For example are Scandinavian men who has Y-haplogroup R1(a/b) someway more ''Germanic'' than Scandinavian men who has I1 haplogroup?
    (The first I1 man has been existed in Denmark some 3000years ago, or?)
    Y haplogroups indicate paternal lineage only, autosomal DNA is what counts. That being said, certain Y DNA haplogroups CAN be more, say, Scandinavian than others, if the person first bearing that mutation was autochthonous.

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    As to the origin of Germanic tribes - the original proto-Germanic culture bearers would have perhaps been genetically more similar to Continental Celtic peoples than anything else, belonging mainly to R1b-U106, and these people (important to note - they weren't actually Celts!) would have penetrated into Scandinavia and have blended with the natives (Mainly I1 and R1a) to create the first truly Germanic culture. Which is why Scandinavians essentially belong to three haplogroups (I1, R1a and R1b - though there have been some Finnic incursions in recent times)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglo-Briton View Post
    As to the origin of Germanic tribes - the original proto-Germanic culture bearers would have perhaps been genetically more similar to Continental Celtic peoples than anything else, belonging mainly to R1b-U106, and these people (important to note - they weren't actually Celts!) would have penetrated into Scandinavia and have blended with the natives (Mainly I1 and R1a) to create the first truly Germanic culture. Which is why Scandinavians essentially belong to three haplogroups (I1, R1a and R1b - though there have been some Finnic incursions in recent times)
    Oh, this is interesting

    Which one of 3 can be said to been Indo-Europeans?

    Which one of 3 has most likely brought blonde hair & light eyes to Scandinavia?

    In any cases can all 3 be called Europeans (European haplogroups)?

    Are Indo-Europeans more valued Europeans than others...being Aryans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindnightSun View Post
    Oh, this is interesting

    Which one of 3 can be said to been Indo-Europeans?

    Which one of 3 has most likely brought blonde hair & light eyes to Scandinavia?

    In any cases can all 3 be called Europeans (European haplogroups)?

    Are Indo-Europeans more valued Europeans than others...being Aryans?
    Again, I will say to pay very little attention to Y DNA, there are tribes in Africa that are majority R1b, for example - a Swede with Y DNA J2 is of course far more European.

    However, I'll answer your questions anyway.

    Out of those three haplogroups, I1 seems to have been brought to Scandinavia by farmers of the Funnelbeaker culture (it is worth noting though, that these farmers would have been hybridised with the original hunter-gatherers of Europe by this point), whereas R1a was mainly brought by the Indo-European Boat Axe culture, and R1b mainly brought by the Indo-European Jastorf culture. The chronology out of those three seems to have been I1, then R1a, then finally R1b. The original hunter-gatherers, native to Scandinavia, seems to be that of I2.

    The blonde hair question is a little more complicated, so I'll skip to the Bronze Age - blonde hair seems to be more associated with I1 and R1a. R1b seems to be more associated with red hair. Again, I'll stress, that this does not mean someone who is R1b is more likely to be red-headed - just that if he is from an area where the R1b tribe has had a larger genetic impact, the average person of that area will likely be more red-headed. Your Y DNA is just your paternal lineage, the overall family tree matters a lot more. Light eyes seems to always have been present.

    It depends what you mean by European. The Europeans of today share very very little in common with those of the past - people migrate, invade etc. The history of Europe, broadly, is three-fold - originally, it was inhabited by hunter-gatherers. Then, farmers from the Near East slowly colonised most of Europe, but far more intensively in the warmer (and closer) South. Finally, the Indo-Europeans moved in, rapidly colonising Europe through warfare - they have had a larger impact on the North, as in Southern Europe there were lots of farmers, so Indo-European admixture would have become more diluted.

    The original Indo-Europeans, in their pure form, have absolutely no modern counterpart - they have died out through assimilation. However, their purest current form is indeed in Scandinavia, though the resemblance is only partial. The idea of Indo-Europeans (basically what you mean by Aryans) as supermen has some merit to it, but they were originally actually quite primitive - they were incredible at war, but artistically they seem to have been stunted, at least if their pottery is anything to go by (a bowl to an Indo-European was just a bowl, whereas Neolithic cultures would put a lot more effort into making it look fancy). On the other side though, they were more adept at metalworking, and people like the Scythians did some beautiful things with gold. The main reason people in Europe admired Aryans was because it seemed they were associated with many great civilisations, and this is certainly also true, but let's not forget the main means through which a civilisation becomes great in the first place - war. Modern NW Europeans seem to have hit a sweet spot between the adventurous and domineering Indo-European and the tamer, perhaps more artistic Neolithic man. I tried to make that paragraph pretty objective, but I do have a partiality to Indo-Europeans, so I will say this - I think there is more to being creative and artistic than taking your time making pottery! Interesting, the most artistic region of Europe seems to be around the Alps, where the natives were associated with being of a lower race than either Nordids or Mediterranids!

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drottin View Post
    Its to many lies and old stories around. Some of it is about politics, some of it is about religions etc. The christians struggled a long time before they eventually got traitors on the inside (Like Harald Hårfagre) of germanics to force christianity upon the germanic people. In Scandinavia it took about 1000 years more to do this then other parts of Europe.. And when the christians attacked (Danevirke was created in Denmark year 500 as a defence against christians) they eventually got attacked themselfes (Lindisfarne year 793 etc). The anger (amongst christians, the pope etc) at that time led to a policy i belive against germanic people to undermine their culture, pride, traditions, laws etc that have lasted to this day.

    In Norway we have the example of sami people (Asian releated tribe) that by politicians got a status as "the first people" and have special rights compared to people like me (Germanic tribes). It is a big lie and a shame. Sami people didnt arrive before year 400 i belive, and they had to pay taxes to stay here... They werent even allowed to live near germanic people..

    Christians portrayed germanics as bad people in every way, no wonder you could say, but the fact is that christians attacked first. It didnt help, they got slaughtered, and again it was traitors inside the germanics that used the christianty to get in power eventually.

    It just go on and on...
    New Age Hippie lies!

    The problems began between pagans, first the Romans and Celts, then Romans and Germans. The Celts were assimilated by the Republic under Caesar, then the Germans by the Empire under Augustus. Subsequently, Rome moved to Carolingian Gaul and then Ottonian Germany. There were continuous attempts to annex and assimilate our lands further North, but they only managed to make satellite states out of us by usurping our governments and installing their conspirators, even as we were able to do the same with Welsh and Finnish folks and those associated with them.

    Religion? Bah!

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=39822

    While all English are familiar with the story of the Norman Conquest of England in 1066, which led to the counts of Blois and Anjou, even Capet once ruling over us from their base in France, and turning our land into one plundered for foreign tyrants, what is the Swedish and Danish opinion on the rise of Mecklenborg, Pommern, Wittelsbach, Oldenborg, Bernadotte, Monpezat, etc? Scotland had Balliol, Bruce, and Valois. Finland also had Hesse.

    These questions are pertinent all the more so because England and Denmark had shared native dynasties up until this time with a common religious tradition as well, with English bishops and priests in Denmark, and Danish kings in England. This Nordic environment was overtaken by Franks and Germans about the time of the Crusades, when Europe became cosmopolitan and nationalism became less important in the interest of Christian unity against the Muslims. Consequently, the infrastructure of the North was sacrificed to maintain a more Eurocentric atmosphere. For instance, not only was the North overrun by Carolingian princeling descendants, making satellite states of Northern lands on behalf of the Holy Roman Empire, but then what followed, were Nordic claims to European thrones, like France and Spain by England, Poland and Russia by Sweden. To what degree has the North been subverted, or evolved by these administrative and infrastructural imported contacts from Continental Europe? Have there been biological transformations as a result of these changes, or was it all "class-based"? Perhaps both, to either predominance? I think it is as possible to find Frank and Spaniard phenotypes in England, just as one finds Polack and Russian phenotypes in Sweden. There also seem to be the reverse situations, with Englishness detected among Franks and Spaniards, and Swedishness detected among Polacks and Russians.

    People take the British situation for granted, and don't comment on the Scandinavian, apart from Kalmar, but without any focus on the foreign roots of those dynasties. The only foreign focus of historians is the Hanseatic League. All the Protestant nations also take it for granted that the Roman church was foreign, but that's not really my interest here. People always just say it was Catholicism that was foreign, but I need a secular focus. I'd rather hear your words on this though, since I have gone over the transformation of the North in my mind and not heard or seen any commentary about the foreign overlordship by Europeans over Scandinavian lands at all. Even, bizarrely, Napoleon and Hitler don't seem to register as foreign to Scandinavian historiographers as the Pope's men. This confuses me.
    How about a Nazi Solution?

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=40127

    Norden has several artificially created territorial issues that need to be worked out.

    Sapmi ought to become an independent republic, but here's the part where it gets interesting. Where should this new and free Lapland exist? The Murmansk Oblast is perfect, and when there, they renounce any welfare or territorial entitlement claims for reindeer herding from Finland, Sweden, Norway, as well as Russia. The Karelian Oblast should also go to Finland, Franz Josef Land to Norway, and Aaland to Sweden. Scandinavia rids itself of the Saami problem, Finland, Norway, and Sweden regaining traditional lands. These could be some of the many preconditions for Russian entry into Europe.

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