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Thread: Tayllerand on the Poles...

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    Grin Tayllerand on the Poles...

    Some things never change, eh?

    Napoleons Foreignminister Talleyrand said to Sovary about the Poles: "This Nation is worthless and one can only organize Chaos with them".

    :

    The Memoirs of Baron de Marbot - Volume II
    Chapter XXXII


    "These partial attacks, which did us, indeed, little harm, became very disagreeable by continued repetition. Many of our sick and wounded were taken and plundered by these marauders, some of whom acquired immense booty. Even from the ranks of our allies, the desire of acquiring wealth raised up new enemies for us—I refer to the Poles. Marshal Saxe, the son of one of their own kings, said rightly that the Poles are the greatest plunderers in the world, and would not respect even their fathers' goods. You may judge whether those who were in our service respected their allies' goods. On the march and in the bivouac they stole all that they could see, but as people began to distrust them, and petty larceny became difficult, they decided to go to work on a large scale. To this end they organized themselves into bands, threw away their helmets, and put on peasants' caps; and, slipping out of the bivouacs after dark, they assembled at an appointed place, and came back to the camp shouting the Cossacks' war-cry of ‘Hourra!' thus terrifying the weaker men, many of whom fled, leaving their effects behind. Then the pretended Cossacks, after pillaging all round, went off, and returned before daylight to their places in the French column, where they resumed the title of Poles, with liberty to become Cossacks again the next night. Attention having been called to this atrocious brigandage, several generals and colonels resolved to punish it. General Maison had such a good look-out kept in the bivouacs of the 2nd corps, that one fine night our outposts surprised some fifty Poles just as they were making up to play their part of sham Cossacks, and were on the point of giving their 'Hourra! ' as pillagers. Seeing themselves surrounded on all sides, the brigands had the impudence to say that they had meant to play a practical joke, but, as it was neither the place nor the time for joking, General Maison had them all shot then and there. It was some time before we saw any more robbers of that sort, but they re-appeared later on."

  2. #2
    Stig NHF
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    And without them Europa would be a Turanid continent today. Wien 1683 ring any bells?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stig NHF
    And without them Europa would be a Turanid continent today. Wien 1683 ring any bells?
    Where would you be if you would read some books?



    And here we have it again: Polaks to buisy plundering and stealing, letting the Turks get away and the Germans doing the fighting.


    Here I must recall Brigette Pohl's description, published in the "Deutsche Wochen Zeitung" no. 9 of 2 March 1979, of the noble Polish chronicle of Jan Sobieski and his movement to Vienna. It is worth recalling, even if only in excerpts, since it shows why the Poles always blame the Germans in connection with the battles against the Turks at Vienna, saying "the thieves didn't even say 'thank you'". The Poles always reveal their own character defects in attempting to accuse the Germans.

    The "brave Polish king" remained behind with his comrades, far removed from the blood of battle at all times, at a safe distance from the battlefield. He knew just where to hide -- in the Vienna woods, at Dreimarkstein, where no Turk was to be seen or could even be expected for miles around...

    Far behind the front line, the noble Sobieski was right up front: on Bald Mountain, ministering to the Papal nuntio Marco D'Aviano and reading Mass. Then he once again withdrew, leaving it to the Germans to defeat the Turks. He must have been about as peace-loving as the Soviet Union today. Again and again, the Germans attempted to pursuade the Polish nobleman to move forward to intervene. But in vain. He had letters to write to his noble wife, who wanted to know how much loot he would bring back. He replied that he and his son Jakob would quite certain to run no risk of danger.

    This was while the Germans fought and died in fierce combats around Heiligenstadt, in Nussdorf, and Grinzing. The generals were wounded, the brothers Moritz of Duke Croy fell at Nudsdorf, the Duke himself was severely wounded. Prince Eugene, later to become famous, won his first laurels here, in the service of Germany; none spared himself. Streams of blood flowed over the famous wine region of Grinzing. Only the Poles held back, "biding their time...

    But when they considered the battle safely won, oh, then they broke cover, since of course they wanted to be the first to divide the spoils. But they failed to reckon with the Pascha of Ofen, Ibrahim, who broke forth upon the Poles at the edge of the city of Dornbach, so that the Poles, crying for help -- this is reported by the chronlicler Diani, who is very well disposed towards Sobieski -- ran away in large numbers.

    Count Ludwig of Baden then attacked with two of his Imperial dragoon regiments, and succeeded in rolling back the Turkish line of battle.

    Duke Charles of Lorraine gained the victory by undertaking a daring wheeling movement with doubling and flanking movements. The road to the surrounded city of Vienna now lay open.
    The chronicler reports: "Our cavalry was too heavy to keep on their "the Turks'" heels. That of the king "Sobieski" was, of course, lighter; he, however, abandoned the attempt at pursuit due to other considerations" (!) For the Poles, in particular, their greatest hour had come: while the Germans buried their dead, cared for their wounded, comforted distraught and desperate refugees from the burning outlying villages of Vienna, and sought in vain to pursue the Turks with their heavy cavalry, the good Sobieski made himself at home in the tent of the Great Vizier and "gave his Polish army and accompanying hordes the order to plunder."
    Thus the legend of "the brave King Sobieski" and his equally brave army is disproven on the basis of historical fact.

    -----

    Translator's note: The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica disputes this, but depicts Sobieski as a traitor in the pay of Louis XIV: "He died a broken-hearted man, prophecying the inevitable ruin of a nation which he himself had done so much to demoralize."

    -----

    Sobieski's behaviour is strikingly similar to that of the Polish Marshal in the last war, Rydz-Smigly, who naturally wished to be depicted in an equestrian victor's pose before the wings of the Brandenburg Gate in the summer of 1939, but who, when the war which he demanded actually came about, rapidly left his troops in the lurch and fled to a foreign country (Roumainia).

    Polish bravery was -- and is -- simply a legend, just like their honesty. Why would they need to call the Germans robbers and plunderers at all times if they didn't need to distract attention from their own misdeeds?
    Plundering the treasures of the Great Vizier Kara Mustafa at Vienna can hardly have been so unprofitable as not to be worth fighting for. But this must not be admitted; attention must therefore be diverted towards the ungrateful Germans.

  4. #4
    Stig NHF
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    Ah well, no need for personal attacks You just keep up your unproductive fellow-European bashing and see how far that gets you. You better hurry get out of the way so that you don't get rolled over by the German panzers invading Poland in the close future :laugh:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Brandt
    Where would you be if you would read some books?



    And here we have it again: Polaks to buisy plundering and stealing, letting the Turks get away and the Germans doing the fighting.
    This is Goebbels propaganda.

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    Watch out you two, or you may be accused of being "anti-German"

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    http://www.branica.com/wwwinfo/index...ttle_of_Vienna


    The Battle of Vienna (as distinct from the Siege of Vienna some hundred-fifty years earlier), marked the final turning point in a 250-year struggle between the forces of Christian Europe and the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Over the 16 years following the battle (the so-called Great Turkish war), the Turks would be permanently driven south of the Danube River, never to threaten central Europe again.

    The battle, which took place on September 12, 1683 pitted a large Austrian and German army of about 100,000 troops and their allies, a 30,000-man relief force under Jan Sobieski, King of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, against their Turkish besiegers. The Turks, commanded by Pasha Kara Mustafa, numbered approximately 140,000 men, although a large portion of them played no part in the battle.

    Before the siege, the Viennese had demolished many of the houses around the city walls and cleared the debris, leaving an empty plain that would leave the Turks vulnerable to defensive fire if they were to rush the city. Kara Mustafa solved that problem by ordering his forces to dig long lines of trenches directly towards the city to help protect them from the defenders as they advanced towards it. A goal of this digging was to decrease the stability of the walls around Vienna. Additionally, the siege of the Turks disabled virtually every food supply into Vienna, and the population was starving. (A good example of this can been seen by the Viennese cavalry, which had to start killing their own horses for food. After the Turks were driven away later, many horse thefts were reported by the polish army.)

    Sobieski began planning a relief expedition to Vienna during the summer of 1683, when the hard-pressed Turks launched an all-out offensive against Austria. The two nations had been embroiled in conflict for more than 150 years, and Mustafa's assault was an attempt to put a final end to this. Starting in March, the Turks moved toward the city, and finally invested it on July 14. The previous winter, Austria and Poland had concluded a treaty in which the Austrian Emperor would support Sobieski if the Turks attacked Kraków; in return, the Poles would support Austria if Vienna were attacked.

    The Polish king honored his obligations to the letter, going so far as to leave his own nation virtually undefended. He covered this with a stern warning to Imre Thököly, the leader of Hungary (then an Ottoman satellite), whom he threatened with destruction if he tried to take advantage of the situation.

    Mustafa's men had managed to take part of the walls of Vienna by exploding mines under them, but he inexplicably did not make dispositions to defend against Sobieski even after learning of his arrival. At 4 in the morning on September 12, the Austrian army on the left and the German forces in the center moved forward against the Turks. Mustafa launched a counterattack with most of his force. Then the Polish infantry launched a massive assault on the right flank. After 12 hours of fighting, Sobieski's men held the high ground on the right.

    At about 5 in the afternoon, four cavalry groups, one of them German-Austrian and the other three Polish heavy cavalry (Hussars), 20,000 men in all, led by the Polish king, charged down the hills. In the confusion, they made straight for the Ottoman camps, while the Vienna garrison sallied out of its defenses and joined in the assault. In less than three hours, the battle was won, as the Turks beat a hasty retreat to the south and east. Although no one realized it at the time, the entire war was won that day, as well. The Ottomans fought on for another 16 years before giving up, losing vast territories in the process.

    The Turks lost about 15,000 men in the fighting, compared to approximately 4,000 for the allied Christian forces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanBlood
    Watch out you two, or you may be accused of being "anti-German"
    I would say that is already an established FACT!

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    Dr. Brandt, why You hatred Poles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syfon
    This is Goebbels propaganda.
    Thats right Polak, the chronlicler Diani used his time machine to propell himself into the future and get some advice from Dr. Goebbels and then returned to write a falsefied history of the battle of Vienna.
    It wasn't Charles of Loraine or Count Ludwig of Baden, nor Prince Eugen who beat the Turks. It was soley the noble Polaks who - as we all know - win every War they fight in. :
    And Baron de Marbot and Talleyrand are of course also just spreading lies.

    Thieves then, Thieves now, Thieves for ever more!

    Quote Originally Posted by Syfon
    Dr. Brandt, why You hatred Poles?
    Check your Historybooks and you might find the answer!

    I invite you to our German section to ask anyone there what they think of Poles. I am not alone. :biggrin:

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