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Thread: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

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    Exclamation Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    Phenylketonuria and the peoples of Northern Ireland.

    Zschocke J, Mallory JP, Eiken HG, Nevin NC.

    Universitats-Kinderklinik, Marburg, Germany.

    The comparison of regional patterns of recessive disease mutations is a new source of information for studies of population genetics. The analysis of phenylketonuria (PKU) mutations in Northern Ireland shows that most major episodes of immigration have left a record in the modern genepool. The mutation 165T can be traced to the Palaeolithic people of western Europe who, in the Mesolithic period, first colonised Ireland. R408W (on haplotype 1) in contrast, the most common Irish PKU mutation, may have been prevalent in the Neolithic farmers who settled in Ireland after 4500 BC. No mutation was identified that could represent European Celtic populations, supporting the view that the adoption of Celtic culture and language in Ireland did not involve major migration from the continent. Several less common mutations can be traced to the Norwegian Atlantic coast and were probably introduced into Ireland by Vikings. This indicates that PKU has not been brought to Norway from the British Isles, as was previously argued. The rarity in Northern Ireland of IVS12nt1, the most common mutation in Denmark and England, indicates that the English colonialization of Ireland did not alter the local genepool in a direction that could be described as Anglo-Saxon. Our results show that the culture and language of a population can be independent of its genetic heritage, and give some insight into the history of the peoples of Northern Ireland.

    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7032
    Last edited by Euclides; Wednesday, December 31st, 2003 at 08:41 PM.

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    I'm a little confused. The study seems to speak of "Ireland" and then at the end this changes to "Nothern Ireland". Was this test conducted on the whole island or just the North, if it was just the North then why wasn't it conducted on the rest of Ireland?
    I think most people today accept that Celtic culture spread further than Celtic genes. There is without a doubt Celtic genes in Ireland mixed with the genes of UP and Neolithic former inhabitants.

    It just seems a little strange that no distinction seems to be made between Ireland and Nothern Ireland and I'm wary as these kind of headlines are usually used by Loyalists when they try to search for someway to make Nothern Ireland look different from the rest of Ireland. It is of course, the difference being that English and Scottish colonists were planted on the confiscated lands of the previous owners, and so if anything you might expect to possibly find a little more Anglo-Saxon genes there. In truth however, most of the Colonists were Scots and English had settle all over Ireland to much the same extent, therefore I would expect the genetics of Nothern Ireland to be much the same as the rest of Ireland

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    I am going way out on a limb here since I know so little about Irish history, but, as I recall, the Irish of northeastern Ireland (Galloway?) sailed accross the Irish Sea and settled western Scottland just as the Anglo-Saxons were settling the eastern side. The Celts pushed east, into the highlands, displaced the Picts and became the Highland Scotts. Then, the British goverment relocated some of these Highland Scotts to Northern Ireland for the political reasons with which we are all familiar. Since the original population came from and area (again I could be wrong) for which it is always said that had a high percentage of UP ancestry, hasn't this genetic research found exactly what would be expected?

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    I'm a little confused. The study seems to speak of "Ireland" and then at the end this changes to "Nothern Ireland". Was this test conducted on the whole island or just the North, if it was just the North then why wasn't it conducted on the rest of Ireland?
    I think most people today accept that Celtic culture spread further than Celtic genes. There is without a doubt Celtic genes in Ireland mixed with the genes of UP and Neolithic former inhabitants.

    It just seems a little strange that no distinction seems to be made between Ireland and Nothern Ireland and I'm wary as these kind of headlines are usually used by Loyalists when they try to search for someway to make Nothern Ireland look different from the rest of Ireland. It is of course, the difference being that English and Scottish colonists were planted on the confiscated lands of the previous owners, and so if anything you might expect to possibly find a little more Anglo-Saxon genes there. In truth however, most of the Colonists were Scots and English had settle all over Ireland to much the same extent, therefore I would expect the genetics of Nothern Ireland to be much the same as the rest of Ireland
    i agree... there are so much speculation by people with no connection to celticness... the fact are that celtic speaking peoples spread over much of Europe.. including Ireland, settling Ireland in many waves.. so logically the Irish are predominantly of Celtic origin with small clusters of neolithic elements.. this is equally true for Bretagne, wales, Scotland, Galicia .. the pre IndoEuropean % may vary somehwat betwen these regions ut for the most part the Celtic presence is strong.. clearly visible in the population. furthermore the seven celtic nations are saviors of the Celtic culture and history even if not 100% genetic Celts.. I suspect that these non 100% Celts are more homogeneous than many of those that question our celticness..???

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    I am going way out on a limb here since I know so little about Irish history, but, as I recall, the Irish of northeastern Ireland (Galloway?) sailed accross the Irish Sea and settled western Scottland just as the Anglo-Saxons were settling the eastern side. The Celts pushed east, into the highlands, displaced the Picts and became the Highland Scotts. Then, the British goverment relocated some of these Highland Scotts to Northern Ireland for the political reasons with which we are all familiar. Since the original population came from and area (again I could be wrong) for which it is always said that had a high percentage of UP ancestry, hasn't this genetic research found exactly what would be expected?
    Exactly, this study is precisely what we would expect.
    It doesn't prove that Northern Ireland is Non-Celtic, especially as Nothern Ireland isn't mentioned throughout the article to the end. It refers merely to Ireland as a whole.
    The facts are that Celtic genes have mixed with those of the previous inhabitants.

    As for the history, your almost correct Doctor
    I'm not sure what you mean by Galloway. Galloway is an area in SW Scotland. Galway is in Western Ireland. The kingdom in North East Ireland which the Irish left was called Dal Riada. They did indeed invade and settle western Alba (later called Scotland after them - note that Scotia was originally another name for Ireland and thefore the Scotti or Scots meant "Irish"). The Scots (Irish) and the Picts eventually united under the Scottish king, Kenneth MacAlpine.
    These same Irish Scots were later "planted" on the stolen land of the remaining Irish by the English for political reasons. Despite the claims of these "Ulster Scots" that they are somehow different from the rest of the Irish, the truth is the only difference is culture, in much the same way as someone else pointed out that the English and Germans main difference is cultural, not ethnic.
    Therefore Northern Ireland is mainly composed of:

    i) Planters whose origins are from Ireland anyway

    ii) Irish people whose ancestors remained in Ireland at the time of the invasion of Alba.

    There os no significant difference. The people of Northern Ireland are basicall y the same as the people of the rest of the island. The difference is cultural, nothing more.

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    The people of Northern Ireland are as closely related to Western Scotland both Celtic and Pre Celtic (Picts Cruithne).

    As there as much actual (archaeological and sustainable historical) evidence for population displacement between Western Scotland and Northern Ireland in the dark ages to Medieval even through modern, than Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland.

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    Quote Originally Posted by Oengus II
    The people of Northern Ireland are as closely related to Western Scotland both Celtic and Pre Celtic (Picts Cruithne).

    As there as much actual (archaeological and sustainable historical) evidence for population displacement between Western Scotland and Northern Ireland in the dark ages to Medieval even through modern, than Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland.

    Yes, there has been substantial on-going movement between Northern Ireland and Western Scotland, although I don't know if you can quantify population interaction by saying this area had more than that area, would be interesting if you could link to evidence that can show that.
    My own family's ancient history is that of a people originally inhabiting the area around Meath, before moving into Ulster (Donegal, then Derry and Tyrone).

    Ireland and Scotland (particulary the west as you said) are all linked to each other by their Gaelic heritage. As you said, the Picts inhabited North-Eastern Ireland and Scotland (although they were likely found to a much lesser degree all over Ireland). The Picts were of course eventually assimilated into both Irish and Scots populations and became indistinguishable.
    Last edited by Milesian; Sunday, January 4th, 2004 at 11:56 AM.

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    I agree. I think they are more Anglo-Saxon.

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    The Picts were of course eventually assimilated into both Irish and Scots populations and became indistinguishable.
    Through MacAlpin's treason in Scotland although evidence exists for the possible continuation of Pictish Kings after this date.

    In Ulster funnily enough the Cruithin (who may be described as the Irish Picts) were originally the allies of the Dal Riatia (or Scotti) in Ulster and 637 the Scotti King Domnall was allied with the Ulster Cruithin against the Ui Neill High king.

    I would very much like to know what and how much pre Celtic blood exists in both Scotland and Ireland but have never seen or heard of such a study.

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    Post Re: Northern Irish people are non Celtic in terms of genetic heritage

    Quote Originally Posted by MVSSOLINI MIT VNS
    I agree. I think they are more Anglo-Saxon.
    What makes you think that? The pre-Plantation population would be a mixture of mostly UP, Atlanto-Med and Celtic with some lesser influence coming from the Vikings.
    Post-Plantation would see the arrival of mostly Scots with much the same background.

    English planters were much less common so Anglo-Saxon genes would be a minor contribution. Additionally, those English who did settle where not confined to settling in North East Ireland (as opposed to "Northern Ireland" - which is a political distinction which only came into existence in the 1920's). Therefore I would re-iterate that from a scientific (as opposed to a certain political) perspective that the people in the six counties of Northern Ireland are as "Celtic" as their fellow kin in the other 24 counties of Ireland.

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