Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 28 of 28

Thread: The Child Wife of the "Prophet". Was Muhammad a Pedophile?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Idis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Last Online
    1 Week Ago @ 07:00 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    Dutch, Low German & French
    Country
    United States United States
    Gender
    Age
    30
    Family
    Married parent
    Politics
    Free & Libertarian
    Religion
    Cultural Christian
    Posts
    124
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    75
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    106
    Thanked in
    43 Posts
    As far as I know, in the past a girl was considered a woman as soon as she had her menarche (first menstrual cycle). This meant she was able to procreate. It was an important right of passage. Also, underage marriages as well as age gap marriages used to be more common (some girls would marry with 14 or 16 more often than today).The man would normally be expected to be a little older since he was the breadwinner in the family. That required that he acquired some finances, skills and a place to live. That said, enormous age gaps were still the exception rather than the rule. Usually in the case of royals and convenience marriages. People were usually expected to marry when they reached the age of consent and were physically abled to work and fend for themselves and others. In certain parts of the world where tribal life is still practiced, people still get married quite young (for today's standards). In some parts of Africa, for example, despite the government's strong attempts to stamp out the practice, 15 is still quite a common age for women to get married.

    The Bible doesn't reveal the ages of Mary and Joseph, but many assume they were a young couple as were most couples at the time when the Bible was written. For women, the usual age for betrothal was 14-17, while the actual marriage took place between 16 and 18. This is also why virginity was important before marriage, promiscuity at such ages was frowned upon. Others assume Joseph was between 30 and 44 years old when Jesus was born (some assume he was likely born around 49 B.C. to Jacob, the Patriarch of Jerusalem).

    Some people ascribe the theory that Joseph was an 80 year old man to those who maintain that Mary never consummated her marriage. Many Catholics, for example believe that Mary remained a Mary at the time of her death. She had allegedly been raised in the Order of Temple Virgins in Jerusalem before Joseph stepped in to take her in to his home and honored his vow to the Order to allow Mary to remain a holy virgin for the rest of her life. Since it was hard to believe for many people that a married couple could have abstained from sexual activity for such a long time, especially when at the time barrenness was considered to be almost as bad as death, they would have made Joseph too old and tired to take any sexual interest in his wife.

    There are other things that seem to disprove this theory: it was uncommon during that era for men to wait until their old age to get married (unless they were widowed or it was a big political arrangement. Only a very rich man of that age would have been permitted to be betrothed to such a young girl, yet Joseph is portrayed as a poor village carpenter).

    Israelite males were required to travel to Jerusalem three time a year and the scriptures show Joseph was strong enough to make that trip when Jesus was 12 years old. It's unlikely that a 92 year old man could walk to Jerusalem from Nazareth and back (91 miles each way over mountainous terrain rising 1400 ft). Joseph also taught Jesus the skill of carpentry which was manual labor requiring considerable strength. Unless of course people lived much longer and were much fitter during that era, but that would have made more sense if i was the Old Testament and pre-flood civilizations, where people supposedly lives hundreds of years.

    The Bible also seems to suggest that Jesus had 6 siblings - although it doesn't explicitly say they were the biological children of Mary and Joseph, but many people assume them to be -, what would have had to make Joseph definitely younger than 80 - he'd have had to enjoy some good years of fertility an virility to produce 6 children.

    Anyway, here is a more thorough refutation from WikiIslam: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Joseph_the_Pedophile

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Idis For This Useful Post:


  3. #22
    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    24 Minutes Ago @ 03:12 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English, Anglo-Saxon
    Country
    England England
    Location
    South Coast
    Gender
    Zodiac Sign
    Aries
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Self Employed
    Politics
    Free Speech / Anti-EU
    Religion
    Pagan
    Posts
    5,057
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,575
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,564
    Thanked in
    1,379 Posts
    I often wonder whether today's Christians would have got along with those from ≈2,000 years ago.

    I'm sure that *SEX*, that age-old taboo, would be a source of perpetual strife. Betrothed couples as young as 14??? OMG

    That does sound quite yukky, actually, and it's good to see that even Christianity has made some progress in this regard over the centuries ... not so sure about the Muzzies though

  4. #23
    Member Luminous Terror's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Last Online
    2 Days Ago @ 03:29 PM
    Ethnicity
    Guta
    Country
    Other Other
    State
    Gotlandia Gotlandia
    Location
    Şiudinassus Gutane
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Arian Christian
    Posts
    15
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    4 Posts
    The 9 years old thing is actually a myth created after accusations by Shi'i that Aisha was not a virgin before her marriage to Muhammad. Her age was set back extremely far in Sunni canon to try and promote her virginity. Judging by evidence concerning her sisters, she was actually much older, anywhere from 14 to 19. Still a huge age difference but completely normal for the standards of the day.

  5. #24
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Siebenbürgerin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Transylvanian Saxon
    Subrace
    Alpinid/Baltid
    State
    Transylvania Transylvania
    Location
    Hermannstadt
    Gender
    Age
    33
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Ethno-Cultural
    Religion
    Lutheran
    Posts
    2,732
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    216
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    403
    Thanked in
    199 Posts
    6 years old would have been young even by older era standards. Before the industrial revolution, in many parts of the world, including India, China and Eastern Europe, women tended to marry immediately after reaching puberty, in their mid-teens. Societies where most of the population lived in small agricultural communities were characterized by these marriage practices well into the 19th century. In the 18th century in my region even in the rural areas the minimal age for marriage was 12 (for girls) and 15 (for boys). The girls who came from richer and more prestigious families would marry with 17-18 and those from the city who finished their studies with 21-22. The man was expected to be a little bit older because he would have to provide financially for his wife and children. In the rural area, the men would marry before they went in the military so by the time they returned from their military duty (around 21 years old) they'd already have children.

    Betrothal and marriage are similar but different concepts. In ancient and medieval societies it was common for girls to be betrothed at, or even before, puberty. In the cases of some noble peoples, sometimes even at birth. But not all betrothals ended in marriage and long engagements were quite common. In ancient Israel, most girls were married by the age of 15. But back in that age 15 years old was considered to be adult age. Girls under 12 (usually who didn't reach the puberty) were considered minors. As Idis said, if a girl had her first menstruation and she was able to conceive children, she was no longer considered a girl, but a woman. Even nowadays it's considered an important milestone for girls ("she's becoming a woman"). Another thing we've to take into consideration is that especially in the preindustrial era the possibility of miscarriage as well as infant mortality was high. So a woman's duty was to try to conceive as many viable children as possible, who would reach adult age. Also, back then single women were viewed in a negative way, a woman who didn't marry after a certain age (usually her late 20s or early 30s, that's when a woman's fertility starts to decline) was seen as there was something wrong with her. Since back then women weren't seen as equal to men it was difficult for a women to maintain herself financially, she needed a husband for this.

    By Northwest European standard women tended to marry in their mid-20s but there were exceptions like the royals, noblemen or rurals. Large age differences were common for the royal class. For example, Princess Emilia of Saxony married at age 16 George the Pious, Margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach, then aged 48 years. The combination of early marriage with big age gap marriage was often due to poverty and economic survival strategies, sealing land or property deals or settling disputes, consolidating powerful relations between families or war, famine and epidemics. Another case is English stage actress Ellen Terry who married at age 16 George Frederic Watts who was 46 years old. The marriage was arranged by her parents who thought it would be advantageous. English common law established statutory rape laws and ages of consent for marriage. In 1275 sexual relations with girls under either 12 or 14 (depending on interpretation of the sources) were criminalized; the age was reduced to 10 in 1576.

    So no matter by which standards we take it, 6 years old would have been too young for marriage and sexual contact. Even if we take the different era standards into account, 6 was still considered to be a child both physically and mentally.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Siebenbürgerin For This Useful Post:


  7. #25
    Senior Member Theunissen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Last Online
    8 Hours Ago @ 07:17 PM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    North Western Europe
    Country
    South Africa South Africa
    State
    Transvaal Transvaal
    Location
    South Africa
    Gender
    Posts
    491
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    160
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    247
    Thanked in
    136 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    I often wonder whether today's Christians would have got along with those from ≈2,000 years ago.

    I'm sure that *SEX*, that age-old taboo, would be a source of perpetual strife. Betrothed couples as young as 14??? OMG

    That does sound quite yukky, actually, and it's good to see that even Christianity has made some progress in this regard over the centuries ... not so sure about the Muzzies though
    I find that kind of funny how the (post-)moderns are up in arms about teenagers marrying in earlier ages.
    Yet they are totally OK with kids younger than 12 having sex, homosexuality and pornographic sex education to pre-schoolers.

  8. #26
    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    24 Minutes Ago @ 03:12 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English, Anglo-Saxon
    Country
    England England
    Location
    South Coast
    Gender
    Zodiac Sign
    Aries
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Self Employed
    Politics
    Free Speech / Anti-EU
    Religion
    Pagan
    Posts
    5,057
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,575
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,564
    Thanked in
    1,379 Posts
    Before the industrial revolution, in many parts of the world, including India, China and Eastern Europe, women tended to marry immediately after reaching puberty, in their mid-teens. Societies where most of the population lived in small agricultural communities were characterized by these marriage practices well into the 19th century. In the 18th century in my region even in the rural areas the minimal age for marriage was 12 (for girls) and 15 (for boys). The girls who came from richer and more prestigious families would marry with 17-18 and those from the city who finished their studies with 21-22. The man was expected to be a little bit older because he would have to provide financially for his wife and children. In the rural area, the men would marry before they went in the military so by the time they returned from their military duty (around 21 years old) they'd already have children.

    Betrothal and marriage are similar but different concepts. In ancient and medieval societies it was common for girls to be betrothed at, or even before, puberty. In the cases of some noble peoples, sometimes even at birth. But not all betrothals ended in marriage and long engagements were quite common. In ancient Israel, most girls were married by the age of 15. But back in that age 15 years old was considered to be adult age. Girls under 12 (usually who didn't reach the puberty) were considered minors. As Idis said, if a girl had her first menstruation and she was able to conceive children, she was no longer considered a girl, but a woman. Even nowadays it's considered an important milestone for girls ("she's becoming a woman"). Another thing we've to take into consideration is that especially in the preindustrial era the possibility of miscarriage as well as infant mortality was high. So a woman's duty was to try to conceive as many viable children as possible, who would reach adult age. Also, back then single women were viewed in a negative way, a woman who didn't marry after a certain age (usually her late 20s or early 30s, that's when a woman's fertility starts to decline) was seen as there was something wrong with her. Since back then women weren't seen as equal to men it was difficult for a women to maintain herself financially, she needed a husband for this.

    By Northwest European standard women tended to marry in their mid-20s but there were exceptions like the royals, noblemen or rurals. Large age differences were common for the royal class. For example, Princess Emilia of Saxony married at age 16 George the Pious, Margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach, then aged 48 years. The combination of early marriage with big age gap marriage was often due to poverty and economic survival strategies, sealing land or property deals or settling disputes, consolidating powerful relations between families or war, famine and epidemics. Another case is English stage actress Ellen Terry who married at age 16 George Frederic Watts who was 46 years old. The marriage was arranged by her parents who thought it would be advantageous. English common law established statutory rape laws and ages of consent for marriage. In 1275 sexual relations with girls under either 12 or 14 (depending on interpretation of the sources) were criminalized; the age was reduced to 10 in 1576.
    Those 'traditional' types who get offended by today's youngsters having sex at an 'early' age are really objecting to them not being married.

    Tell them that it was once the custom for girls to have sex within marriage from the age of 12 onwards and they'll find this quite admirable (..especially if they went on to produce 9 or 10 children) but single girls losing their virginity at similar ages in modern society is something they simply cannot cope with.

    As I've said on many previous occasions, there's nothing new under the sun.

  9. #27
    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    24 Minutes Ago @ 03:12 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English, Anglo-Saxon
    Country
    England England
    Location
    South Coast
    Gender
    Zodiac Sign
    Aries
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Self Employed
    Politics
    Free Speech / Anti-EU
    Religion
    Pagan
    Posts
    5,057
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,575
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,564
    Thanked in
    1,379 Posts
    I find that kind of funny how the (post-)moderns are up in arms about teenagers marrying in earlier ages.
    Yet they are totally OK with kids younger than 12 having sex, homosexuality and pornographic sex education to pre-schoolers.
    Theunissen, I hadn't noticed this. I can honestly say I've never met anyone who's made a big fuss over teenage marriages in bygone times. Do you come across a lot of them on the Internet?

    My thoughts are that children of 12 getting betrothed are probably under tremendous pressure from parents etc.. and have little say in the matter. I'm sure that a lot of the marriages were 'arranged' ones to some degree (..a practice I deplore!) and I'd take a lot of convincing that Princess Emilia (16) would have married George the Pious (48) of her own free will. To that extent I don't look upon teenage marriages in the medieval era very favourably but I can understand such things as the economics involved. Fortunately, these economic (and religious) circumstances no longer apply in most places today. That's good!

    Homosexuality and pornographic sex education to pre-schoolers is disgusting and should be stopped immediately. I've worked in education and would refuse to promote any of this crap were I told to do so now. The agenda being pushed is extremely transparent and I've never gone along with any of it since the first day it was introduced into classrooms. Had my son ever had this stuff pushed at him then I (or my wife) would have been to see the headmaster PDQ but luckily it was only just taking off about 20 years ago.

    I'm not entirely sure who these 'post-moderns' are because I've always rejected labels. I just give my straightforward views on each issue as it comes along and if others want to pigeonhole me that's fine. On this occasion it seems like I only ticked the first box and not the second so maybe I fall into a different category to this particular group of people you mention.

  10. #28
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Finnish Swede's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Finnish Swede
    Ancestry
    Father: Swedish, Mother Finnish Swede
    Subrace
    Sub-Nordid - Nordid - Baltid mix
    Country
    Other Other
    State
    Finland Swede Community Finland Swede Community
    Location
    Ostrobothnia
    Gender
    Age
    21
    Zodiac Sign
    Pisces
    Occupation
    Student
    Politics
    No specific ideology
    Religion
    Lutheran
    Posts
    1,660
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    366
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,395
    Thanked in
    1,323 Posts
    Muslims are muslims from the first one of them (Muhammed).

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Similar Threads

  1. The Pedophile Jewish Billionaire Jeffrey Epstein
    By The Aesthete in forum The United States
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Wednesday, July 31st, 2019, 12:38 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: Monday, March 12th, 2018, 10:37 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Saturday, September 23rd, 2017, 05:50 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •