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Thread: Germanic Marker I1a

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    Germanic Marker I1a

    An informative site indeed...

    http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/I1a.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakub
    An informative site indeed...

    http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/I1a.html
    Coon said Neo-Danubians were a race and devoted some space to that proposition. How do you refute it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    Coon said Neo-Danubians were a race and devoted some space to that proposition. How do you refute it?


    Well, Coon claimed that Neo-Danubians were a product of Danubian (proto-Nordic Mediterranean) and Ladogan (northern forest UP) types.

    This, he claimed was the most common racial component of the northern Slavs.

    However, the Slavs were never Danubian - we know this from skeletal remains, which Coon seems to have missed. Slavs had their own "Nordic" type which was termed as Intermarine by Polish authors.

    Secondly, there is no evidence of any Ladogan type being present in Poland - neither Y-chromosome, mtDNA, nor autosomal DNA. Unless, of course the Ladogans carried the Uralic gene Tat-C - but we've only got 4% of that in Poland.

    Today the vast majority of Poles look nothing like Coon's plates of Neo-Danubian examples, and they never did. The only thing they shared with these so called Neo-Danubians was stunted stature - and that's no longer true.

    Coon's understanding of Polish anthropology and history was poor. But eastern Europe was not his area of expertise - he based his conclusions on the work of Polish authors. It appears he didn't look hard enough to find all the info, and misinterpreted the little he did bother to read.

    Today, anyone making the claim that Neo-Danubians exist needs to have their head checked ASAP. This claim has no basis in truth, and is the result of one misguided anthropologist from the 1930s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakub
    Well, Coon claimed that Neo-Danubians were a product of Danubian (proto-Nordic Mediterranean) and Ladogan (northern forest UP) types.

    This, he claimed was the most common racial component of the northern Slavs.

    However, the Slavs were never Danubian - we know this from skeletal remains, which Coon seems to have missed. Slavs had their own "Nordic" type which was termed as Intermarine by Polish authors.

    Secondly, there is no evidence of any Ladogan type being present in Poland. And there is no genetic evidence of any northern forest types, or paleo-Asiatics in Poland - neither Y-chromosome, mtDNA, nor autosomal DNA.

    Today the vast majority of Poles look nothing like Coon's plates of Neo-Danubian examples, and they never did. The only thing they shared with these so called Neo-Danubians was stunted stature - and that's no longer true.

    Coon's understanding of Polish anthropology and history was poor. But eastern Europe was not his area of expertise - he based his conclusions on the work of Polish authors. It appears he didn't look hard enough to find all the info, and misinterpreted the little he did bother to read.

    Today, anyone making the claim that Neo-Danubians exist needs to have their head checked ASAP. This claim has no basis in truth, and is the result of one misguided anthropologist from the 1930s.
    Coon was deficient when it comes to Eastern Europe. But remember, he never went there himself to do work. What he did was to use the metrical work of earlier researchers, many of these from the previous century. WW2 changed many things, including Poland.

    I am not an expert on Poland. Polak is an expert on Poland and he is the one who should address questions regarding that country but I would say, from what little I know, that the population of Poland comes basically from three sources, 1. the Corded People or perhaps the Kurgan or Indo-European people from the eastern plains. 2. Some Med. agricultural types from the South. 3. The forest type you name as Ladogan or Finnish or whatever you call it. This is based upon genetic evidence I learned from Polak. Since these people obviously met and interacted, the Neo-Danubian type exists by whatever name you call it. A rose is a rose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    Coon was deficient when it comes to Eastern Europe. But remember, he never went there himself to do work. What he did was to use the metrical work of earlier researchers, many of these from the previous century. WW2 changed many things, including Poland.

    I am not an expert on Poland. Polak is an expert on Poland and he is the one who should address questions regarding that country but I would say, from what little I know, that the population of Poland comes basically from three sources, 1. the Corded People or perhaps the Kurgan or Indo-European people from the eastern plains. 2. Some Med. agricultural types from the South. 3. The forest type you name as Ladogan or Finnish or whatever you call it. This is based upon genetic evidence I learned from Polak. Since these people obviously met and interacted, the Neo-Danubian type exists by whatever name you call it. A rose is a rose.

    Eeeegghhhh...I hate when this happens.

    I am Polak from Skadi...sorry, that's my fault. I should've made that clear to everyone.

    Yes, the Polish population is a mix of several groups...including the steppe people, central Europeans, and Neolithic migrants. So there's a substantial Nordic and Alpine compnent in Poland, and a lesser Uralic one (5%?). Med elements are also there, including some Armenoid.

    But none of this adds up to Coon's theories of Neo-Danubians. I have no idea how he misinterpreted Polish data, which was quite extensive, but he did. Maybe he was trying to fit the data to his theories, rather than the other way around.

    I am currently looking at a very extensive study of 150,000 Polish conscripts from the pre-WWII era. It's very interesting stuff.

    The author has concentrated on looking for four main types within this group - Nordic, Lappanoid (Alpine), Med, and Armenoid.

    Of course, these translate to long headed blonds (or close enough), short round headed individuals, long headed brunets, and round headed beaked nosed brunets.

    From this study, it seems that the Nordic component (that includes both Slavic and central European types) is the main one - but only as a significant minority.

    The Lappanoid element (Central as well as Eastern European Alpines) comes a fairly lose second to the Nordic.

    This mix of Nordic and Alpine is basically the Polish population. That's true today as it was before the war, except Poles were somewhat stunted then due to poor diet and whatnot (the average height in Poland today is 177.8cm, and rising).

    Add to that the minor Uralic element seen in all Eastern and Northern European nations, and that's probably the reason why Coon invented his Neo-Danubians.

    So, just to sum up...

    Coon's theory: Poland is a mix of de-Corded Nordics and Ladogans (northern forest people)

    Coon does not explain why the Nordics in Poland lost their Corded element...he just speculates that this is what happened.

    My theory: Poland is a mix of steppe invaders and central Europeans, in which Nordic elements were much more common during the Iron Age, but have since been weakened due to environmental and social factors (brachycephalization since the late middle ages).


    I should also state here that Coon published work after the war, and in the 1960s he actually came out and said that Poland was a homogenous nation, and that the brachycephalization process was certainly a result of selective preassures, rather than any sort of mixing. I don't have the quote on me now, but I will look for it.

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    I think Neo-Danubian exists but I don't think they are a product of mixing Nordic and Ladogan. I haven't thought about it much. Maybe they are related to Alpine.
    .

    IHR Revisionist Conference, April 24, 2004, internet broadcast:

    http://www.internationalrevisionistconference.c om/

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmocreator
    I think Neo-Danubian exists but I don't think they are a product of mixing Nordic and Ladogan. I haven't thought about it much. Maybe they are related to Alpine.

    Hey Cosmo,

    Yeah, I'm not saying that the features described as Neo-Danubian do not exist in Poland.

    What I'm disputing is the way they got there, and also their frequency - especially in the current population.

    I think that the classic "Neo-Danubian" is not a Nordic/Ladogan mix, but an Eastern European Alpine - often WITHOUT Finno-Ugrian admixture.

    Moroever, these Neo-Danubians should not be included in the Nordish group, because they're just Alpines. And they certainly do not make up 55% of the Polish population.

    I think that people who could fall into the Neo-Danubian terminology were more common in pre-WWII Poland, but since then Poles have grown a lot, and with that we've had changes in head shape and size.

    The only thing that hasn't changed, IMO, are some of the facial features - such as those noses with the characteristic Slavic "tip". Please refer to the attachment to see what I mean.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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