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Thread: The Neo-Danubian Race (for Jakub)

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    The Neo-Danubian Race (for Jakub)

    What´s wrong with the concept of a Neo-Danubian race?
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop
    What´s wrong with the concept of a Neo-Danubian race?

    It doesn't exist as defined by Coon. That's it.

    I mean, I've got nothing against Red Riding Hood or Santa Claus either, but they ain't real. And there's the rub.

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    Ok here is the SNPA definition:

    Neo-Danubian

    Etymology:
    The term Neo-Danubian is derived from Danubian ("of the River Danube"), a cultural designation associated with the proto-Nordics of the Neolithic, who brought Indo-European language (Slavic and Baltic) to the eastern steppes.

    Other names:

    - Oriental (Deniker)
    - Osteuropid (von Eickstedt; includes the East Baltic type)
    - Pre-Slavic (Czekanowski)
    - Slavic (popular anthropology)
    - Subnordic (Deniker; includes the East Baltic type)

    Origin:

    Danubian proto-Nordic altered by the semi-mongolid Ladogan racial type of the northeastern forests. This type was brought westward from the Volga country with the migrations of the Baltic Finns during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ. Today it presents a variable but easily recognizable phenotype of eastern Europe.


    Description:

    Neo-Danubians are very round-skulled, and their cephalic indices frequently exceed 85. The head form is globular, and the forehead is steep and not seldom protuberant. The face is square to oval in shape, and the combination of a round face and a plump cheek is common. There is often a slight flatness to the Neo-Danubian face.

    The nose is moderately leptorrhine, straight to concave in profile, and often snub-tipped in a Ladogan fashion. The nasal skeleton is rather low, with a broad tip.

    The upper lip is long and convex, and the cheek furrows are as a rule strong.

    Median eyefolds are indicative of a low orbit a heavy deposit of fat in the upper lid. Another fatty deposit - on the malars - seems to be a secondary sex character, as it is most common among women. The malars are only moderately projecting, especially when compared to those of East Baltics and Ladogans.

    Neo-Danubian pigmentation is more blond than brunet, and the pigment character is prevailingly light-mixed. The combination of ash-blond hair with gray-mixed eyes seems to be a specialization shared with East Baltics and partially blond Ladogans, but the most common combination is golden blond hair and blue eyes.
    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/rg-neo.htm

    What´s wrong with this definition? Do you think this is just a special East-Baltid mix with other subraces?
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Well, the SNPA also says that Poland has 55% of this Neo-Danubian race.

    But the characteristics of the Neo-Danubians, as described by Coon and the SNPA, are uncommon in Poland.

    For example, concave noses are less common in Poland than in Scandinavia. Anyone who has ever been in Poland knows that. Convex noses are actually much more common there.

    I won't even go on about body height, which has risen in Poland to well above any supposed Neo-Danubian level (177-180cm on average).

    From a genetic point of view, the Neo-Danubian race could never have existed in Poland.

    There is not much trace of any "Ladogan" DNA in the Polish population, or most other areas said by Coon to be inhabited by Neo-Danubians.

    The only possible marker I can think of that can be attributed to Ladogans is Tat-C, and so far, it's been found in about 4% of Poles.

    Then again, Tat-C is at its highest in populations where Neo-Danubians were never said to have existed, so go figure. Maybe there is no such thing as the Ladogan race, and never was? I think that's quite likely.

    I think that Coon didn't have much of an idea about Eastern Europe (and neither do the people at SNPA), but felt compelled to explain his data with some sort of a theory.

    If the Neo-Danubian race did, or does, exist anywhere, it's in far north Russia and Finland, amongst the Uralic natives there. Those people are basically a mix of Lapps, paleo-Asiatics and Nords. So they're not even Neo-Danubians by strict definition, but they're close I guess.

    What passed for Neo-Danubian in Poland before WWII wasn't actually what Coon said it was.

    In the early 1900s Poland was basically the same as it is today - a mix of Intermarine (Slavic Nordics) with Alpines, as well as some East Baltic, Littoral Nordic (NW European type), and Uralic. The big difference was that the population was stunted due to harsh economic conditions, and this affected a lot of things, not just body build and height. It also probably had a bearing on facial and head structure, which seems much different in younger Poles than in those born 50+ years ago.

    These days, anyone who's read Coon's book will say they see a Neo-Danubian in anyone who looks Polish. But they're not actually seeing Neo-Danubians, they're seeing Intermarine features.

    It would be very difficult to find pictures of Poles who look like the people in Coon's plates designated as Neo-Danubian. Well, it would be very difficult to find such people aged under 30-40 anyway.

    Here are some pics of Poles. This is the single most common look in Poland - the Intermarine type. It looks kind of Nordic, but isn't really. It comes from the Black Sea steppes, and has become rounder headed in Poland due to natural selection and Alpine admixture over the last 1000 years. In the group photo you may notice a couple of the Poles exhibiting East Baltic features. They're present all over the country, but are not as common as is often claimed. Their origins are probably the same as those of the 4% of Tat-C in Poland - Finno-Ugrian introduced via the Balts such as the Prussians and Lithuanians.

    Btw, the East Baltic race is also found in north-east Germany, but is even less common than in Poland. Most of the "East Baltics" in Germany are actually classic Borrebies.

    But the Intermarine type is quite common in Germany. In the east, obviously, and in the Ruhr, where many Poles settled over the last 200 years.
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    I agree with you that so-called "Neo-Danubians" do not exist anywhere as a race (save perhaps Karelia), but represent rather sporadic genetic recombination of the Finno-Ugric substratum absorbed by Slavs. Uralic strains, very weak everywhere in European Russia save the extreme Northeast are almost nonexistent in Poland.

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    I find it curious that all these so called Nordicists don't seem to have any new ideas or information outside of their simplistic interpretations of Coon's 1939 book "The Races of Europe". I suggest that they consult more recent and up to date gene research by Geneticist Lucas Cavalli-Sforza and join the 21st century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dzaborow
    I find it curious that all these so called Nordicists don't seem to have any new ideas or information outside of their simplistic interpretations of Coon's 1939 book "The Races of Europe". I suggest that they consult more recent and up to date gene research by Geneticist Lucas Cavalli-Sforza and join the 21st century.
    1) There are now four people, and one troll, in this thread. None have declared themselves nordicists here, beyond the implication due to membership. You are speaking to those people, not about them--you would do well to address people as if they, i don't know, exist?

    2) New ideas and new information come in all the time, and we aggregate as much data as possible for people; the value of data we amass on Skadi is to be judged on its own merit from the individual member's point of view, as it would be anywhere else. Consequently, a likely majority of members on Skadi disagree with much of Coon's work, and I would venture to say that most people involved in anthropological classifications consider the validity of sub-racial classification, again, on the merit of the researcher and the data; common sense is not denied, here, due to ideology. Be it for or against: we simply don't allow it. People get called on bullshit, here.

    3) Do you know what Isee? I see legitimate critical analysis and spirited debate--of all data and parties involved. Do you know what I see, when I read about Cavalli-Sforza? Ideological bias; feigned debate. Like an election in a dictatorship, the process looks authentic enough to fool your average uninformed cretin - your generic slack-jawed onlooker doesn't know the difference.

    We do know the difference, and I thank you for allowing us such a clear picture of what an aloof and utterly biased individual can achieve when he latches on to a single source of scientific research as if it were a holy grail--and proceeds to proselytize His Word to the ignorant heathens.

    And besides all that, the desire to preserve and to progress our people and culture - and for all peoples and cultures to wish the same - is the foundation of our community; science is not. Science is part of it, but it is also ever-evolving, we are always learning, and we cannot hope to be as astute today as we may be in one hundred years. Empirical science is a description, an investigation, in to what and how things are and how they became. The desire to survive is neither driven, nor limited, by scientific description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dzaborow
    I find it curious that all these so called Nordicists don't seem to have any new ideas or information outside of their simplistic interpretations of Coon's 1939 book "The Races of Europe". I suggest that they consult more recent and up to date gene research by Geneticist Lucas Cavalli-Sforza and join the 21st century.
    You find it curious, now, do you? eyes:

    It would be nice to see some arguments to back up your allegations. Unless, of course, some less lenient moderator than myself flushes you down the toilet first.

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    I may also note on this topic, that, in 1939, when Coon wrote his book, Poland as such did not exist in the way it does today. Poland in 1939, just before its annexation into the Germanisches Reich Deutscher Nation, a.k.a. NS Germany, comprised the areas of today's Eastern Poland, Southern Lithuania and almost all of Belarus. And, as far as I have seen from pictures of people from this area, these are more likely to be closer to the Neo Danubian subrace as it has been constructed, than those that live in nowadays Poland, a place that should, indeed, by its geographical area, be called "Prussia", where East Baltics, Norics and East Nordids are much more common, plus Dinaroalpinids (yes, I define them as such) in Poland's south. The Alpinid features are quite common in the Polish population as such, plus the nasal convexity is quite suggestive of Dinaroid influences, as amongst those races that are compatible of natively living in Middle and Northern Europe, DInarics are almost the only ones that have clearly convex noses.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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