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Thread: Did the Aryans invade India?

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    Did the Aryans invade India?

    People have made out Aryans to be marauders like Attila the hun. This is a complete travesty of truth and a farce on Aryans. Aryans were a peace-loving people with philosophical interests (not that they were cowards). These were the people who first penned the line 'Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam' (the world is a family), 'Sarva Khalvidam Brahma' (all creation is Brahman), who prayed for the happiness of all people of the world 'Sarve bhavantu sukhina, sarve santu niramaya; Sarve bhadrani pashyantu, ma kashchid duhkkha bhag bhavet' (May all be happy, may all be without disease; may all see good only, may none have misery of any sort), cannot be war-mongers.

    Indians know this the best, because the Aryan heritage is still living in our religion and culture and nowhere else. Hindus also were a peace-loving people. The two people took to each other like fish takes to water. The two cultures merged and became one. Aryans came to India from Central Asia as Hindus. There was no Aryan invasion in India. I would request members to understand the Aryan psyche first. Here are a few lines from the Atharva Veda.

    'We are the birds of the same nest
    We may wear different skins
    We may speak different languages
    We may believe in different religions
    We may belong to different cultures
    Yet we share the same home - our earth.

    Born on the same planet
    Covered by the same skies
    Gazing at the same stars
    Breathing the same air
    We must learn to happily progress together

    Or miserably perish together
    For man can live individually
    But can survive only collectively.'

    (http://www.tuhl.freeserve.co.uk/tuhl_homepage_main.htm)
    Last edited by Aupmanyav; Tuesday, September 12th, 2006 at 05:35 PM.

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    The principal god of the Rig Veda - the first and original work of the Northern newcomers - was Indra , a Warrior God if ever there was one - equiped with Thunderbolts to strike down his dark, demonic enemies. To assist him in this task were bands of mighty warriors , the vegetable intoxicant Soma ... and the Sacrificial Fire , Agni (Ignis), (mythologically) his brother.

    These things were long ago and later subverted by heresy and darkness. They live on only as a memory....

    http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...41&postcount=6

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    These things were long ago and later subverted by heresy and darkness. They live on only as a memory..
    RigVeda is not a memory, it is a living tradition in India. Do you know how many universities teach RigVeda, Scores. Do you know how many institutions teach RigVeda, thousand. Do you know how many students study RigVeda, hundreds of thousands. Do you know how many people vouch by RigVeda, hundreds of millions. Memories are all that people have. They dont forget even after thousands of years. The traditions are transferred from father to sons, and from sons to grandsons. That the Vedas are 3,500 years old is the notion of western scholars, I believe that they are pre-glacial (at least 20,000 years old).

    (http://anjaneyaswami.com/vedhapatasala.asp, http://www.hindu.com/mp/2004/02/02/s...0201240200.htm, http://thatskannada.oneindia.in/news...antidhama.html, http://www.srisivasaikshetram.org/projects.htm, http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/la...news_2004.html), Sanskrit Universities in India (http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en...G=Search&meta=), list of Sanskrit and Indological institutions in India (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indolo...uni_list.html).

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    Nodoubt you are right. But I can imagine there has been a certain about of "updating"! Where for example does it say in the Rig Veda that Indra is Krishna ... and so forth? Things which have been altered are no longer the same....

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    ... Things which have been altered are no longer the same....
    Nor can they be!

    One shall have to evade the Vedic world all together if one seeks to find anything en stasus.

    How very correct you are about updating, though: Aupmanyav strikes me as a great and living example of how Hinduism is undergoing its 'secularisation', if you will - much in the same way the Western world has undergone the secularisation of Christianity.

    We have all sacrificed ourselves, in one way or another, to the singularity. It consumes entire 'worlds'.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    Thank you ,Suut. Or is it yet worse? Is it perhaps more the case that We have been sacrificed! After all much of what has happened to us & about us has happened well beyond our control - and yet subjects us to its tyranny. I am not so much thinking about the demise of the Church - but of the rise of Immigration -- not least from India ! -- albeit an off thread counter invasion.


    Suut:
    "We have all sacrificed ourselves, in one way or another, to the singularity. It consumes entire 'worlds'. "

    --your recent update certainly makes better sense! -- I do agree.

    ... and whilst I am updating my post , I do also think that the Vedas could have been advanced without being annihilated by revisions which obliterated key elements of them! But the old order was swept away - and what has now come to be is but pale shadow of what should have been! This lesson of India should inform the Germanic West... assuming it is not too late for us!
    Last edited by Carl; Saturday, January 13th, 2007 at 08:54 AM.

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    I would not say that there has been much updating (though I would deny that there was none). So we have the whole of the Vedas (they have been losing parts all through their history and travels) and the whole of the indigenous thought. And a teacher (Acharya) or person chooses his own way taking parts of the first and the parts of the second. The ceremonies start with Vedic chants and invocation of Agni, Indra, Surya, Varuna, or Brahaspati, and go on to worship Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti, or Ganesha. Upanishads have various interpretations and admixtures of Vedas as well as of indigenous belief. I believe they were written in Saraswati Valley, while the Vedas were brought to us by the Aryans from Central Asia. Hinduism preserves as much as it can, trying not to loose anything, whether religious thoughts or traditions of the different groups of its adherents. That is why we have so many groups all living together in peace. This is what Christianity and Islam do not do. Swami Dayananda Saraswati chose his own interpretation wholly from Vedas (very contrived, not one which I would go with) to establish Arya Samaj.
    Last edited by Aupmanyav; Friday, January 12th, 2007 at 03:19 PM.

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    ... Or is it yet worse? Is it perhaps more the case that We have been sacrificed! After all much of what has happened to us & about us has happened well beyond our control - and yet subjects us to its tyranny. ...
    I don't face the world this way, so I don't know: I have been driven to the brink more than once contemplating 'cause'.

    Moreover, and to confess, I probably choose responsibility over victimhood (not without paradox or irony) out of terror of the alternative: fear is more useful than despair.

    In short, I am subject to nothing to which I do not subject myself.


    Aupmanyav: I would not say that there has been much updating
    What must be understood is that any religio-moral schema that recognises "everything" and "nothing" as synonymous (as the Hindu does), must also recognise "war" and "peace" as brothers in arms: the Hindu shys from this and is, therefore, not in union with the 'All' (what have you), as the All would be equally Warlike in as much as it is Peacelike.

    This is an "update" in as far as only a conquering and Warlike people can achieve a firm, lasting, and meaningful peace.

    We see this Warlike essence lacking in today's sedated India (I don't recognise sedation as peace).

    Whereas we Germanics, as Germanics, linked by a common spiritual heritage, and very importantly for us, knowable spiritual root outside of the Indic, assume that the necessity of the whole as it is understood in our lore (in this example War as adjunct to peace) is exemplified by the manifest truth that the Warrior lives on in the West - particularly in Germanics (is there really any doubting that Germanics are a Warlike peoples...?), and has been lost in the East, particularly India.

    The lines, in this manner, draw themselves: I have never understood why Germanics look to the Indic to fill in their spiritual 'DNA' (as I have called it elsewhere).

    Our spiritual ties, the common ancestry of our respective spiritualities, have been severed per stirpes (litterally: "by the bloodline"), and I - for one - therefore, and thereby, draw a line between what might be called 'West Arya' and 'East Arya'. - in fact, I am contemplating the complete withdrawl from using the term "Aryan" in this forum as it is a never ending source of division for my people.

    Something, my friend, has been lost to you and your people who carry on not with the whole; but with a new circle drawn 'round the self of your peoples, given the name of Brahma.

    If this loss is not updating, then nothing is.

    However, and to render a balnced critique, Germanics have, for the most, lost the art of Peace; and therefore suffer our own peculiar sedation.
    Last edited by SuuT; Friday, January 12th, 2007 at 10:51 PM. Reason: clarity
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
    I would not say that there has been much updating (though I would deny that there was none). So we have the whole of the Vedas (they have been losing parts all through their history and travels) and the whole of the indigenous thought...... The ceremonies start with Vedic chants and invocation of Agni, Indra, Surya, Varuna, or Brahaspati, and go on to worship Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti, or Ganesha. Upanishads have various interpretations and admixtures of Vedas as well as of indigenous belief.......
    You see , I am not Indian ; I should recognize that India has its own way to a future....and has an honourable right to its own scriptures. If they bring on failure in the south, that is no worse than the corresponding failure in the west! The Vedas began with a clear set of divinities and a particular view of the world. It was primarily Indo-Iranian; I imagine that is why Indra features so mightily. They were a warlike presence - that is why I challenged your start to this thread. Indra, with thunderbolts - supported by the warrior Maruts , confronting the Dasyus and other forces of darkness which they first encountered, this does set out a clear way of living and sacrifice. But it was, over the centuries, gradually eroded and became , in my eyes , itself more and more confused.....until in later works, Indra seems no more that a minor presence -- and other mighty names have taken over , names which one does not see much , if at all , in the early Vedic scripture. In my view, the Vedic era had given way to the Hindu, all that was once truely Vedic - had become Meta-Vedic - subject to change and corruption. Eventually, even the Buddha arose in hostility to all that it had become!

    I do see some virtue in the Veda of old - but I am looking from some way off. I am less sure of what has followed since the history of India is very much its own and has little to say to me. I am not at all sure that I could see India with its Hindu culture as "Germanic" in any meaningful sense ; perhaps I have misunderstood Suut here. There was a time perhaps, several thousand years ago, to the north of India - somewhere - that some commonality might have been between what then moved south , and what then moved north & west. What this was is still in some dispute - peoples, cultures, lingistic influences....There is a distant link - though it may not be entirely direct. You have your own views about some Northern origin I believe?

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    Re: Did the Aryans invade India?

    Suut, we do not feel it that way. It is a nice mix. Both streams are taken care of. The updating was marginal. We are not renewing the relationship with the west, we have no need for that and we would not like to do that (west being what it is now with its permissibility), we are just accepting what perhaps it was at one time. Peace wins over war in India. I feel one with the all people in India, north, west, east, south, and with the aboriginals.

    Carl (Suut, you also please note), there is a BIG MISCONCEPTION about Indra. Who were the dasyus and dasas? They were not the indigenes of India. They were Vritra and others who hid the sun for three months. And the great warrior, Indra, invigorated by Soma, and his steed invigorated by the ceremony of Ashwamedha, with the help of the bitch, Sarama, found where sun and his rays (the cows, Gavah) were hidden. He annihilated the dasas, removed the stone (fortifications) and made sun to come out. It is a polar story and it is a celestial story (B.G.Tilak in his 'Arctic Homes in Vedas'). Sarama or Cerebrus (with the Greeks) is the Dog Star, heralding the appearance of the sun and the beginning of a new year in spring. With the Greeks, it was Herakles who rescued the cows from where titans had hidden them in much the same manner. There was hardly any strife between the Aryans and the Indians bar skirmishes, it was a percolation. There were no forces of darkness in India, and Buddha rose and melted back in the mother magma, that is India. There is no hinduism without the Vedas, and Vedas would not have survived had there been no hinduism. The first invasion was by Alexander.

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