View Poll Results: Are Secular Ethics Possible?

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    36 72.00%
  • No

    14 28.00%
Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456
Results 51 to 58 of 58

Thread: Is Religion Needed For Morality? Are Secular Morality and Ethics Possible?

  1. #51
    Munchkin
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    LillyCaterina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Last Online
    @
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    English/Irish/French
    Ancestry
    England/Ireland/France
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Indiana Indiana
    Gender
    Zodiac Sign
    Gemini
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Deli Shift Leader/Manager
    Politics
    Centrist
    Religion
    Christian
    Posts
    556
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,466
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    836
    Thanked in
    444 Posts
    No. Religion is not needed for morality.

    Practicing a particular kind of established religion doesn't necessarily make one a Christian. While good conduct should be maintained, being a Christian is not earned by good work. Salvation is by Grace alone. And this is an entirely personal matter.
    Not all in life is at it appears to be.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to LillyCaterina For This Useful Post:


  3. #52
    Omnia in bonum
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Alice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    English and German
    Subrace
    Nordid + CM
    mtDNA
    K1c2
    Gender
    Religion
    Catholic
    Posts
    1,768
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,660
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    971
    Thanked in
    541 Posts
    No, because there are philosophical truths that can be known by reason alone. These moral norms can be known without recourse to religion.
    “She could never be a saint, but she thought she could be a martyr if they killed her quick.”
    ― Flannery O'Connor

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Alice For This Useful Post:


  5. #53
    Sound methods Chlodovech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Ancestry
    Frankish
    Country
    Holy Roman Empire Holy Roman Empire
    Gender
    Politics
    Völkisch traditionalist
    Religion
    Catholic
    Posts
    3,015
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,318
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,266
    Thanked in
    983 Posts
    It's theoretically possible to have some basic morals without religion - enough to make you tolerable enough to be around. They're still ethics of a lesser nature and susceptible to change at a moment's notice depending on one's own interests/the latest trends/one's personal character - it makes you rather unreliable and unpredictable in an area of life in which one should be predictable. The irreligious can deny this all they want, but I don't believe they're the geniuses who figured out life and how to live by themselves and yet they all seem to make that claim on some level.

    Is religion needed for high culture/art? Yes absolutely, the answer is much clearer than in the case of morality - there are examples of rather moral irreligious people, but not of irreligious societies cherishing beauty. The way religion is required for beauty, it is probably required for morality too, they're closely related anyway. Secularism gives us sculptures of dildos in city centers, but no Michelangelo. What goes for art and religion likely goes for religion and morality as well.

    It's not that religious people don't mess up, but at least they're supposed to live up to a standard and can be held accountable when they don't, not so with those who lack religion - and hence a standard which can be easily defined. Which is a western disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurdsson
    Secular people are just as, if not more, moral than religious people.
    That's how irreligious people delude themselves into thinking they're better than religious folks - and they don't even have to make any effort for it. And that's the main thing - they can do whatever they like AND be lazy AND still be morally superior (in their own eyes). I don't think so though. I don't see it. It requires making virtue out of vice - see the abortion/euthanasia epidemic - if you dress it up in moral language, you can present it as moral.

    Another thing to consider is: tradition(alism) without religion is impossible - it's unthinkable and simply does not happen. What remains is hobbyism which can never catch on. If people stop adhering to religion, they also do away with tradition every single time.
    “Individuals trapped in a dying culture live in a twilight world. They embrace death through infertility, concupiscence, and war. A dog will crawl into a hole to die. The members of sick cultures do not do anything quite so dramatic, but they cease to have children, dull their senses with alcohol and drugs, become despondent, and too frequently do away with themselves. Or they make war on the perceived source of their humiliation.”
    — David P. Goldman, as quoted by Jack Donovan in The Way of Men.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chlodovech For This Useful Post:


  7. #54
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Siebenbürgerin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Transylvanian Saxon
    Subrace
    Alpinid/Baltid
    State
    Transylvania Transylvania
    Location
    Hermannstadt
    Gender
    Age
    32
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Ethno-Cultural
    Religion
    Lutheran
    Posts
    2,713
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    185
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    359
    Thanked in
    181 Posts
    In my view, religious morality is the root or base of any type of morality. While there can be morally virtuous atheists, their set of morals is in reality borrowed from religion. The most simple and basic set of morals are the Ten Commandments. For example, do not steal, do not lie, do not covet, do not murder, and so forth. The Ten Commandments is an example of absolute morality. In the absence of such a moral system and a God who decides such issues, every moral decision would be relative. To some person, lying would be acceptable under some circumstances, to another not at all, and to another morals wouldn't matter. We can see moral relativism in secular societies. The rise of certain directions which were previously considered immoral or even sinful, and now are considered acceptable or even promoted. Unfortunately, moral relativism leads to social decay. For morality to function in society, we need a system of absolute morality, established by an unquestionable, higher authority who are themselves the most shining example of morals (i.e. God).

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Siebenbürgerin For This Useful Post:


  9. #55
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Last Online
    2 Hours Ago @ 08:12 AM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Gender
    Religion
    Hitlerism
    Posts
    316
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    59
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    95
    Thanked in
    68 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    In my view, religious morality is the root or base of any type of morality. While there can be morally virtuous atheists, their set of morals is in reality borrowed from religion. The most simple and basic set of morals are the Ten Commandments. For example, do not steal, do not lie, do not covet, do not murder, and so forth.
    That's absurd. First of all, by religious, you mean Jewish-Christian. Confucius and Buddha have been typically accused of being atheists by Christians. Second, biological morality is the root/basis of morality. Herbert Spencer was the first to anchor this idea in people's minds yet only Darwin is promoted. Why did Nietzsche go insane, despite his call for Europe to return to itself and his affinity with the pre-Socratic ancient Greeks?

    Instinct is sympathy. Sympathy/altruism is promoted by Christians. Nietzsche's attack on this aspect of Christianity's ethics was a biological mistake.

    All the commands you mentioned existed in previous civilizations and preceded Moses. Curiously, you've omitted to mention the precepts concerning the Sabbath and not serving other gods/images. What do these have to do with ethics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    The Ten Commandments is an example of absolute morality... such a moral system and a God who decides such issues...
    That's exactly what Ken Spiro (Jew) said: "absolute moral standard that comes from that god". And therein lies the problem.

    For instance, if "thou shalt not kill" (deliberate English mistranslation) was taken to it's logical extreme, everyone would be parasitized and preyed upon. A world where one would be forbidden from killing ants, wasps, moths, rats, hares, etc. would perish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    In the absence of such a moral system and a God who decides such issues, every moral decision would be relative. To some person, lying would be acceptable under some circumstances, to another not at all, and to another morals wouldn't matter. We can see moral relativism in secular societies.
    The rise of certain directions which were previously considered immoral or even sinful, and now are considered acceptable or even promoted. Unfortunately, moral relativism leads to social decay.
    Pragmatism is also found in Christianity, especially in the Jesuit sects.

    Early marriage and polygamy offer Muslims incredible advantages over the Christendom. The monastic life tore Germans from reality. How can homosexuality be considered a "sin" if it's a mental condition and not necessarily a choice? It's even found among animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    For morality to function in society, we need a system of absolute morality, established by an unquestionable, higher authority who are themselves the most shining example of morals (i.e. God).
    I'll admit that I find theocracy to be attractive, but the latter have always been lacking. Christianity has no such representatives. Christians are the last to keep their teachings.

  10. #56
    Senior Member schwab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Online
    4 Hours Ago @ 06:44 AM
    Ethnicity
    Alsatian/Suevi
    Ancestry
    germanic/alsatian/Elsaesser
    Subrace
    Child of Creator God
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Oregon Oregon
    Location
    Rogue River
    Gender
    Age
    83
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    retired - Aerospace
    Politics
    independent
    Religion
    Born again Christian,
    Posts
    746
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    677
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    922
    Thanked in
    441 Posts
    The 10 commandments are sure a good base for morality.
    Just imagine what would happen if every human being would abide by them? The world would be a different place.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to schwab For This Useful Post:


  12. #57
    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    7 Hours Ago @ 03:27 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English, Anglo-Saxon
    Country
    England England
    Location
    South Coast
    Gender
    Zodiac Sign
    Aries
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Self Employed
    Politics
    Free Speech / Anti-EU
    Religion
    Pagan
    Posts
    4,725
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,380
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,310
    Thanked in
    1,225 Posts
    I don’t know of any societies where lying, stealing and murder are deemed acceptable.

    Morality is man-made, just like religion, but there’s a far greater consensus across the world about morality than there is about ‘God’.

    Personally, I have my doubts about folks who model their behaviour on instructions from a book or pulpit. I’d be far more reassured if I thought they’d worked this stuff out by themselves. I'm sure that many of them would - it really isn't that difficult!

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to SaxonPagan For This Useful Post:


  14. #58
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Online
    3 Hours Ago @ 07:09 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Northern Germany
    Subrace
    Faelid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    North Rhine-Westphalia North Rhine-Westphalia
    Gender
    Age
    45
    Zodiac Sign
    Sagittarius
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Pestilent Supremacy
    Politics
    Blut und Boden
    Religion
    Fimbulwinter
    Posts
    4,757
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    929
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,076
    Thanked in
    445 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    Personally, I have my doubts about folks who model their behaviour on instructions from a book or pulpit. I’d be far more reassured if I thought they’d worked this stuff out by themselves. I'm sure that many of them would - it really isn't that difficult!
    Indeed. Much of "morality" is simply a biological imperative for a herd animal like humans. Just because we go about this more "sophisiticated" doesnt change that it's a biological result. We live in groups, and for groups to function it would be insanely bad if everyone would kill everyone randomly. For a group to function trust is important, so if everyone lies or steals all the time, there would be no trust. No trust = no group. Cooperation and in-group altruism can be found across the animal kingdom, ants are even called civilisation for that reason, they've reached such a high level of in-group organisation that it warrants that term, same with bees. Meerkats have kindergardens, a wolf pack exists only to provide social security for the offspring of the alpha couple, all large herd animals protect the herd's young. None of them needs christianity to behave "morally" for their group.

    It is Nature that creates the "morality" for a group to function, gods are merely the protectors of the social concepts that arise from Nature. A single god cannot fullfil this role alone, a single god creates a standstill, entropy that halts development. A dance of balance of various powers/gods, just like in Nature, is a more healthy approach to social, cosmic and religious matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche
    Christianity was from the beginning, essentially and fundamentally, life's nausea and disgust with life, merely concealed behind, masked by, dressed up as, faith in 'another' or 'better' life. Hatred of 'the world', condemnations of the passions, fear of beauty and sensuality, a beyond invented the better to slander this life.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to velvet For This Useful Post:


Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456

Similar Threads

  1. Do You Believe In Absolute Morality?
    By Northern Paladin in forum Law, Ethics, & Morals
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Sunday, November 25th, 2007, 12:30 PM
  2. Morality and Free Will
    By Elenor in forum Law, Ethics, & Morals
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Tuesday, March 27th, 2007, 05:43 PM
  3. Why Morality?
    By Jack in forum Law, Ethics, & Morals
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: Monday, August 21st, 2006, 07:32 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •