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Thread: Genetic Similarities between Arabs and Iranians

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    Re: Arabs and Iranians

    Persians are East Med and they're Aryan, real Aryan just like nord indian high castes....

    Blond has got nothing to do with Aryan

    Theyre rather aryan then a germanic, germanic is not aryan in our society

    never has a tribe that called themselves aryan invaded germany or norhern europe

    Arya = noble, non barbarian

    barbarians lived all overe northern europe when Aryans had high civilizations in Persia, North India and all over the middle east


    Nordicists that think theyre related to Persians or Aryans should think again


    I don't think any upper class Aryan society in Iran or India will accept a germanic as one of their own, ever!!

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    Re: Arabs and Iranians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kshatriya View Post
    Persians are East Med and they're Aryan, real Aryan just like nord indian high castes....
    Aye, but there's the significant IranoNordid element too. Check the fanatic Oslonor's posts on the forum, and you'll see some nice photos [but don't read anything he writes!].
    Blond has got nothing to do with Aryan
    Far less to do with Dravidians and Munda though!
    Theyre rather aryan then a germanic, germanic is not aryan in our society
    never has a tribe that called themselves aryan invaded germany or norhern europe
    We shouldn't forget the Alans, who were active as military auxiliaries all over the western Roman Empire. But I broadly agree with your point here.
    Arya = noble, non barbarian
    barbarians lived all overe northern europe when Aryans had high civilizations in Persia, North India and all over the middle east
    Don't go thinking that squalid city life is the best way of life, or that wicked despotic empires are the height of human achievement.
    Nordicists that think theyre related to Persians or Aryans should think again.
    I don't think any upper class Aryan society in Iran or India will accept a germanic as one of their own, ever!!
    Thank the Gods!
    [But actually, it's not true, is it? Didn't your Brahmins always fawn all over Europeans who took an interest in them, like Rerich?]

  3. #23
    pacific
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    Re: Arabs and Iranians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kshatriya View Post
    Persians are East Med and they're Aryan, real Aryan just like nord indian high castes....

    Blond has got nothing to do with Aryan

    Theyre rather aryan then a germanic, germanic is not aryan in our society

    never has a tribe that called themselves aryan invaded germany or norhern europe

    Arya = noble, non barbarian

    barbarians lived all overe northern europe when Aryans had high civilizations in Persia, North India and all over the middle east


    Nordicists that think theyre related to Persians or Aryans should think again


    I don't think any upper class Aryan society in Iran or India will accept a germanic as one of their own, ever!!
    Aryan theory is related to theories of anthropology in 18 century about Aryan migration. It is based on similarities in language and bone structure between people in Asia and Europe.

    Aryan theory is not related to what Cyrus the Great the King of Persia said about Aryans. Cyrus the Great was not an anthropologist. He simply meant by Aryan that his people are noble and nothing else.

    The word Aryan in both cases have created confusion.

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    AW: Arabs and Iranians

    @Kshatriya

    In the old texts like the Avesta there are Aryans and closely related people which divided from them at some point (two people beside the Aryans).

    There were aristocratic Arya- names among Goth tribes but Germans were most likely one of the people which divided from the original Aryans at a very early stage. Aryans (Iran comes from Arya) and Indians have divided at a later stage forming another people which are related.

    Blond has got nothing to do with Aryan
    Blond hair and coloured eyes still appear and have appeared among Aryans. They might have come together with a northern Aryan division such as the Scythians or Parthians in Iran, but at this point we assume that these traits are simply adoptions to a cold climate and Aryans in general said that they have come from an original northern/arctic land.

    @Oswiu

    Don't go thinking that squalid city life is the best way of life, or that wicked despotic empires are the height of human achievement.
    Forming the first world empire and holding it for more than 200 years is some sort of height of human achievement.

    @pacific

    Aryan theory is not related to what Cyrus the Great the King of Persia said about Aryans. Cyrus the Great was not an anthropologist. He simply meant by Aryan that his people are noble and nothing else.
    I wouldn’t say that, back then Mesopotamian people for example must have been clearly different then Persians. Thus Aryan was almost clearly also a racial term.
    636 A.D Rostam Eran-Sepahbod:

    "Lineage and skill will garner no respect,
    Men will be mutual thieves and have no shame,
    What's hidden will be worse than what is known,
    and stony-hearted kings will seize the throne.
    A misbegotten slave will rule the earth,
    Greatness and lineage will have no worth,
    No one will keep his word…

    Then Persians will live together side by side
    with Turks and Arabs, mixed far and wide...
    The three will blur, as if they were the same..."

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    Re: Arabs and Iranians

    Branches separated from Aryans all through their migration from sub-arctic homeland to Iran and India, the farthest. The Greeks Aryans separated around 4,000 BC because they know only of sun rising on vernal equinox in the asterism of Orion (Mrigashiras). The Indian Aryans later changed the calender when sun rose in Pleidas (Krittikas), and later still when it rose in Beta Arietis (Ashwini). Time has come to change the calender as the sun now rises in Zeta Piscum (Revati). This is because of recession of equinoxes.

    The Avesta of Iranians remembers the stay in Hapta-Hendu (Sapta-Sindhu, the land of seven rivers including a Saraswati) as their fifteenth homeland. Saraswati dried up around 1,900BC; SO, Iranian Aryans must have separated somewhere around 2,000 BC (was it drying up of Saraswati which made them migrate?). It does not mean that all Iranian Aryans are from India. The main body must have continued to live in the steppes of Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan, from where some might have tried to go towards China (the red-haired warrior woman), but they were not very successful in that.

    The second unknown is the geographic location of the point of separation. Where were the Aryans in 4,000 BC when the Greek branch separated from the main body? It could have been the steppes of Kazakhistan, just below Urals and north of Caspean Sea. Why always steppes, because Aryans were live-stock rearers and nomads (they could have been rearing reindeers in their original homeland. They called all four legged animals as 'gawah', and reindeers could have been their earliest 'gawah').

    It is possible that an earlier branch separated to go to Germany and Scandinavia. It could have been somewhere along the Urals, as they are not difficult to cross. It would depend on where their original homeland was? Scandinavia or Siberia. I am not too sure of that. It could have been either.

    By the Indian example, I surmise that Aryans were nice mixing type of people, prone to philosophical thinking (this is opposite of what is generally believed that Aryans were war-like). I am not a historical researcher, nor an anthropologist. But this is what seems to me the most probable.

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    Re: Arabs and Iranians

    Quote Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
    Branches separated from Aryans all through their migration from sub-arctic homeland to Iran and India,
    ...
    It is possible that an earlier branch separated to go to Germany and Scandinavia. It could have been somewhere along the Urals, as they are not difficult to cross. It would depend on where their original homeland was? Scandinavia or Siberia. I am not too sure of that. It could have been either.
    I'm sure you all know by now that I am a fervent opponent of an Asian IE Urheimat [never mind the crazy Out Of India idea, which at least our Indian friend here doesn't support!], so I won't go on about the superiority of the Danubian theory.

    However, Aupmanyav, I would be interested to hear your take on the presence of other language groups and substrates in IE lands, and on the migration routes you propose.

    I would question the failure of IE speakers [or 'Aryans' as you call them] to leave any trace of themselves up in the far north, where there are several relics of other ancient language groups, now surviving as linguistic isolates [Kets, Yukaghirs, Luorawetlans...], and where there is the Uralic language family so firmly ensconced and obviously aboriginal to the region [we could also bring up their anthropological adaptation to the climate, not shared by your 'Aryans'].

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    Re: Arabs and Iranians

    Oswiu, I have a guess on Aryans from 4,000 BC onwards when they might have been in the above mentioned Kazakh steppes between southern end of Ural and Caspian Sea. I have none before that except that RigVeda clearly mentions their original homeland in a sub-arctic region with seven months of sunlight, two month of dawns and dusks, and three months of long night. That should be quite near the pole, something like 75 to 80 degrees North. You should also consider that when ice started building up, land might have extended much farther than it does now. There is a large continental shelf near Scandinavia and near eastern Siberia of no great depth, which might have been dry at that time just as Bering Straits also were. Siberia was not covered with ice sheets like Scandinavia, but it must have been very cold.

    Avesta mentions a deluge by snow. That makes me think that it could possibly be the advance of ice age somewhere around 20,000 BC. As I have mentioned in other threads I do not know if the Aryan uhriemat was in Siberia or Scandinavia. If you think it might not have been Siberia, then it could be Scandinavia. When the ice sheets advanced, the people could have moved south/south east. When the ice sheets retreated, some of these people would remain where they were, some would move north again, and some would go further south/south east in search of greener lands. I suppose the last were the progenitors of Indian Aryans. The migration I think started around 20,000 years ago, and going back or spreading around 14,000 years ago.

    I do not know much about language groups in Europe or Siberia. I would like to get your take on that. I think Russian has as many Proto-IE/IE words just like German has. Correct me if I am wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
    Oswiu, I have a guess on Aryans from 4,000 BC onwards when they might have been in the above mentioned Kazakh steppes between southern end of Ural and Caspian Sea. I have none before that except that RigVeda clearly mentions their original homeland in a sub-arctic region with seven months of sunlight, two month of dawns and dusks, and three months of long night. That should be quite near the pole, something like 75 to 80 degrees North.
    So all you base it all on is some astrological observations hinted at in the RigVeda?
    Would you be so good as to show me the exact parts in question? I'm sure somebody must have put it all on the internet, but you know the material better than me, and can find it easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
    Avesta mentions a deluge by snow. That makes me think that it could possibly be the advance of ice age somewhere around 20,000 BC.
    Oh come on!!! Why so long ago, and why an Ice Age! Heavy snowfalls are not unknown even now in many parts of Turkestan!
    I do not know much about language groups in Europe or Siberia. I would like to get your take on that. I think Russian has as many Proto-IE/IE words just like German has. Correct me if I am wrong.
    Of course it has!
    Ask our Nicola Canadian, he's an expert on Russian-Sanskrit commonalities.
    If you ask such a question, it is clear to me that your knowledge of historical linguistics is basic to say the least.
    Russian is a Slavonic language, and Slavonic languages are every bit as IE as Germanic or IndoAryan.
    Look;
    Russian
    odín dva tri chety're pyat' shest' sem' vósem' dévyat' désyat'
    Proto-Indo-Iranian+
    *aiwas *dva: *trayas *k'atwa:ras *pank'a *(k)swacsh *sapta *ashta: *nawa *daca
    Hindi
    ek do ti:n ca:r pã:c chai sa:t a:th nau das

  9. #29
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    Re: AW: Arabs and Iranians

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyht View Post
    @pacific

    I wouldn’t say that, back then Mesopotamian people for example must have been clearly different then Persians. Thus Aryan was almost clearly also a racial term.
    Cyrus the Great certainly had a tribal identity. But that does not make any difference. Cyrus the Great was not an anthropologist. Today's discussions are about entirely different questions. Aryan is noble or not has nothing to do with language or bone structure.

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    Re: Arabs and Iranians

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Oh come on!!! Why so long ago, and why an Ice Age! Heavy snowfalls are not unknown even now in many parts of Turkestan!
    No, Avesta was not talking about a snow fall, it was much bigger than that. It was a regular deluge story with Ahur Mazda warning, Yima, the king of men, that everything will be covered with ice. Yima then made a Vera (enclosure, Bera in modern Punjabi and Hindi), where he collected specimen of all animals and vegetation.

    Combine it with the RigVedic mention of sub-arctic homeland, it is not in form of astronomical references, it is in form of myths. Yes, my information is based on B. G. Tilak's 'Arctic Homes in Vedas', which is available on the internet at http://www.vaidilute.com/books/tilak...-contents.html in its entirity, thanks to a teen-aged Lithuanian girl, Gabriella, in Eugene, Oregon. Do not dismiss astronomical references, because for some things, they could be the only references available.

    Yes, I know about the similarities of Sanskrit, Russian and European languages. I prepared the charts. At the time I was in college, my grandfather, a historian, archeologist, and linguist, was translating Tilak's books in Hindi (apart from the one mentioned above, 'Orion, or the Antiquity of Vedas'). He also wrote four books on the Vedas. We used to discuss a lot about it. So, it is really in the family. I do not know whether you are aware of the similarities in myths of Indian Aryans and their European counterparts.

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