View Poll Results: Don´t speak ill of the Dead?

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Thread: "Don't Speak Ill of the Dead"

  1. #11
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    Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    No I have never understood that, it seems like superstitious mumbo jumbo to me. My best friend died about a year ago,she was a married mother of three and about 6 months before her death,it became evident that she was having an affair, of course she had lied to her husband and to her family and to me. I remember a few weeks after her funeral that someone brought this up and he was immediately hushed and told " not to speak ill of the dead"
    I think it's like white washing a person's life.

  2. #12
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    Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sciz View Post
    Perhaps that an individual is so dispicable that they threw away their good name in persuit of other things. An honorable person stays by their convictions and does what is respectable and therefore has no need to fear of losing their respectability or good name. The only person who is a coward for speaking out is the person who held his tongue when the dead man was alive.
    It is generally cowardly to say bad-things behind a man's back rather than to his face.

    A dead man may have a face but he is not alive, so to speak ill of him is tantamount to speaking ill of him behind his back.

    It is how what you yourself say and do, and how that reflects on you that matters.
    Your honour is your own responsibility.

    Do you care so much what others say about you, or are you firm in your own convictions?

    Do you really think that mere 'opinons' carry such weight?

    One of the great dangers today is that of believing your own publicity and living your life according to what others' think of you [or what you think they think of you].

    Therefore it is what you say that ultimately matters; therefore choose your words carefully - and say as little as possible [unless you are a genius, and even genii can say too much].


    I don't personally know any heroin junkies. Should I keep quiet about how they destroy their bodies just because I don't know them?
    Best thing to do is this: don't be a junkie yourself. Make your point by example.

    Talk is cheap.

    Rather than bad-mouth dead junkies, use your power to change things.

    Opinions by themselves never changed anything.

    Let's face it, if you wanted to speak ill of all wrong-doing in the world you would suffocate through not being able to draw breath.

    I suppose silence is called for if one just "did not admire the recently deceased." However, I don't think most would speak ill of a dead person unless the sentiment were stronger than that.
    The question is; why would you want to say bad things about someone?

    Can you answer that?

    Surely the only valid reason [other than wanting make yourself seem very pious] would be to want to change that person [make the junkie stop taking smack or something].

    Well, what good is that to a dead junkie?

    Surely speaking ill of the dead is just the ego-trip of the scoffer.
    By 'bad-mouthing Mr X' I demonstrate that I am not as bad as he etc.,

    It is fairly transparent.

    Doesn't this impart more nobility to the dead than they deserve? Everyone writes their own epitaph and, as such, is in control of what others will say about them when they're gone. Respect and honor are earned, not granted. I don't see any reason this should change when the person dies.
    Silence is far more deafening than self-important words.

    Again, this is an Ethics forum: what is the ethical reason for speaking ill of the dead?

    Why do you think the 7 sages cautioned against it?
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  3. #13
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    Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    (This reminds me a bit of a Thread at BuB, asking whether we should automatically respect our elders.)

    Anyway, Zyklop first used the 'hypocrisy' word, and he is absolutely right.
    Just because someone has reached a point of their life which we will all reach ourselves, this doesn't IMO imbue them with any credit.

    If they puposefully die for a cause, any cause, then regardless of their worldview, I will credit them with with courage and resolve, even if I hate that worldview.
    But because some unpleasant idiot dies of a heart attack because of laziness and bad diet, they just become a dead unpleasant idiot.

    Politicians are the worst for this hypocrisy, oh sorry Moody Lawless, I meant decency.
    A leader who is viciously attacked by the opposition for 'ruining the country, not caring about the electorate, not being fit for office, being immersed in sleaze' etc. etc. suddenly becomes a leader who 'was determined, resolute' etc.

    The best example was when dear old Enoch Powell died. Even Tony 'raving loony Marxist' Benn had tributes to give.
    In reality Benn would have hated the "racist" Powell.

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    Re: AW: Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sciz View Post
    If the gods value sincerity, wouldn't they also favour one for speaking ill words out of sincerity?
    The 'gods' can be taken as a metaphor if you like for all that is higher and noble in the world; they are not to be taken too literally.

    To say good things with sincerity is very noble, and therefore god-like.

    Sincerity in and of itself [just as good in and of itself] is not necessarily noble.

    To say bad things with sincerity is not noble any more than to say good things without sincerity is noble.

    Aryanism is about living as gods.

    The gods give out golden words, or they keep a noble silence.

    Most mortals are far more tolerable when they are silent.

    This is linked to the celebrity culture we now have where there is no privacy and only endless, mindless gossip.

    What of the man who lives an ignoble life then dies, if none have stood against him? What is the concrete value of honor in this world if there are no visible consequences of losing it? If the gods also believe in the value of dignity and nobility, haven't they fallen short in their support of it if their followers value it so little as to leave the issue unspoken?
    No - if an ignoble man 'doth offend thee', then strike him down to his face.

    And if you kill him, then walk away from his corpse, without gloating, and without uttering a word.

    Death comes to us all, whether we be 'good' or 'bad'.

    Indeed, I would only want an enemy of whom I could only say good things!
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    AW: Re: AW: Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    "Of the dead say nothing"
    I assume you never have spoken out negatively about Stalinism or Christianity then? I think I should try the search function of the forum.
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


  6. #16
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night Storm View Post
    Anyway, Zyklop first used the 'hypocrisy' word, and he is absolutely right.
    Just because someone has reached a point of their life which we will all reach ourselves, this doesn't IMO imbue them with any credit.
    Again, hypocrisy would entail insincerely 'imbuing' them with 'credit' they didn't deserve. I am not advocating that; I am saying in such conditions it is best to say nothing.

    Personally I find disrespect shown to the elderly to be repugnant - and cowardly as well as ignoble.

    What is a more ugly sight than to see a young man beating up on an elderly person?

    I know - someone digging up a corpse to hang it.

    This is what was done to Cromwell in England.

    Cowards who would have stood no chance against Cromwell when he was alive went in a mob to dig up his body after he was dead.

    That episode is graphic example of why one shouldn't 'speak ill of the dead'.

    The Seven sages knew what they were talking about.

    If they puposefully die for a cause, any cause, then regardless of their worldview, I will credit them with with courage and resolve, even if I hate that worldview.
    But because some unpleasant idiot dies of a heart attack because of laziness and bad diet, they just become a dead unpleasant idiot.
    So why waste your breath on them?
    Don't you have many more constructive and positive things to do and say than to point out the blindingly obvious [i.e., that there are lazy idiots in the world]?

    Politicians are the worst for this hypocrisy, oh sorry Moody Lawless, I meant decency.
    A leader who is viciously attacked by the opposition for 'ruining the country, not caring about the electorate, not being fit for office, being immersed in sleaze' etc. etc. suddenly becomes a leader who 'was determined, resolute' etc.
    That kind of hypocrisy has nothing to do with the position I have maintained. I have said that it is better to say good things - if you have nothing positive to say, it is best to keep silent and do something else.

    Who wants to listen to the whining of 'I am hard-done-by because I am better-than-him'?

    What is eddifying about the sight of a mob all pointing their hypocritical fingers? Yes, hypocritical because those who speak ill of the dead often have 'ills of their own' which they want to hide by diverting attention to those at whom they point!

    The best example was when dear old Enoch Powell died. Even Tony 'raving loony Marxist' Benn had tributes to give.
    In reality Benn would have hated the "racist" Powell.
    Not true; Powell and Benn saw each other as men of principle on their own respective sides of Left and Right.
    In fact it was the likes of Billy Bragg who gloated over Powell's death.

    Just because you have different politics to another man doesn't mean that you have to 'hate' him. How do you know that Benn "would've hated Powell"?

    Do you hate everybody who has a different opinion to yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop View Post
    I assume you never have spoken out negatively about Stalinism or Christianity then? I think I should try the search function of the forum.
    Those are ideologies and so cannot be spoken ill of behind their backs.

    The question refers to how one should conduct oneself when a person [whoever it be] has died.

    However, if an ideology dies, I would not waste my time speaking ill of it as the battle is over.

    However, what about answering my question; why would you want to say bad things about someone;
    i) when they are alive?
    ii) when they are dead?

    Don't speak ill of the dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabitha View Post
    No I have never understood that, it seems like superstitious mumbo jumbo to me.
    I would say that it was philosophical and ethical, rather than "superstitious".

    Don't you ever exercise control over the things you say?

    Is that "mumbo jumbo"?

    No; part of being a mature and noble Aryan entails choosing one's words carefully and learning when to say much and when to say little or nothing.

    My best friend died about a year ago,she was a married mother of three and about 6 months before her death, it became evident that she was having an affair, of course she had lied to her husband and to her family and to me. I remember a few weeks after her funeral that someone brought this up and he was immediately hushed and told " not to speak ill of the dead"
    That is another interesting issue; do you tell someone the truth no matter what?
    Are there not some things that you would rather not know?

    Just because you have some information do you feel compelled to tell everybody about it?
    Go to the papers?
    Go to the authorities?

    I'm just asking, not accusing.

    I actually agree that in the example you gave, it would be best to keep quiet about the affair as the woman was now dead. If her husband is meant to find out, he will. Why interfere and tell him something that may destroy his good memories of the mother of his children?

    And this is what I am saying - it is not always good to speak just for the sake of it. Often it is better to keep counsel.

    No wonder our security forces are in such a bad state - no one can keep a secret today!

    I think it's like white washing a person's life.
    This is the constant misconception; I am not saying tell lies about her - I am saying keep what you know close to your chest. Unless you have good things to say, say nothing.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    I suppose there are countless precedents that can illustrate either view-point. I recall our Prime Minister John Dieffenbaker here in Canada many years back criticising his recently-deceased former political adversary, Lester Pearson. John replied something to the effect that: "He had his chance to respond"! Then, in the Bible, we have the case of Abner's untimely death, and it is recorded that "king David followed the bier and cried with a loud voice, died Abner as a fool dieth?". I think that situation ethics basically apply, but that as a general rule a sensitive approach would be the best policy. The deceased can no longer defend him/herself, and I would view it as inappropriate and disrespectful in most cases to speak ill of those that have passed on, especially those recently deceased and those who were basically good people.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anglo-Canadian View Post
    I think that situation ethics basically apply, but that as a general rule a sensitive approach would be the best policy. The deceased can no longer defend him/herself, and I would view it as inappropriate and disrespectful in most cases to speak ill of those that have passed on, especially those recently deceased and those who were basically good people.
    Well the question that has to be addressed by those opposed to my own position is this; what is to be gained by speaking ill of the dead?

    Even if one is an atheist, that question still must be answered.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    AW: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    Those are ideologies and so cannot be spoken ill of behind their backs.
    They are the results of certain persons life-struggles. How can you criticize Stalinism without criticizing Stalin at the same time? That would mean detaching people from their deeds.

    However, if an ideology dies, I would not waste my time speaking ill of it as the battle is over.
    I would still speak out against it, if only to prevent its reemerging some day again.
    However, what about answering my question; why would you want to say bad things about someone;
    i) when they are alive?
    To show my position. Why do you sport that flag in your avatar?
    ii) when they are dead?
    To show my position. Will you remove that flag just because one of its enemies has died?
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Re: "Don´t speak ill of the Dead"

    Speak well of good people for as long as you live! Speak of the "bad" deceased if it can teach a lesson.

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