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Thread: The Eastern Great Russian/Northern Pontic type

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    Post The Eastern Great Russian/Northern Pontic type

    The term "Northern Pontic" was coined by Viktor Valerianovich Bunak in reference to a mesocephalic, relatively depigmented, leptoprosopic, leptorhine and rather thick-lipped type of Mediterranoid affinities, which inhabits much of Southern Russia, and predominates in Southeast Russia. Other names for this type include 'the Ryazan type' and the 'Eastern Great Russian type'. G. F. Debetz, the anthropologist who first gave an adequate description of this type, believed that the Mediterranoid types of the Black Sea coast were genetically linked to the Nordoid types of Scandinavia. He asserted that the Eastern Great Russian type was an intermediate between the Nordic and Southern Pontic type, but closer to the Nordic, on account of its relatively high cephalic index, and relatively light pigmentation.[1]. Carlton Stevens Coon described the Eastern Great Russian/Northern Pontic type as "essentially Nordic."[2]

    Description of the Northern Pontic race by G. F. Debetz:[3]

    Stature: 167.7 cm.

    Hair form (% of wavy hair): 47.4

    Facial Hair Growth: strong (2.80/5.00)

    % fair hairs (#9-26 on Fischer scale): 15

    % pure light eyes (9-12 on Bunak eye color scale): 39.5

    Head Lenght: 192.2 mm

    Head breadth: 151.3 mm

    Cephalic Index: 78.8

    Slope of Forehead: high (2.47/3.00)

    Browridge Development: weak (1.65/3.00)

    Bizygomatic Diameter: 140.3 mm

    Morphological Facial Height: 124. 9 mm

    Morphological Facial Index: 89.1

    Horizontal Facial Profile: strong (2.60/3.00)

    Nasal Index (measured from the eyebrows) 65.1

    Nasion Height: Medium (2.34/3.00)

    % concave nasal profiles: 12.9

    % convex nasal profiles: 20.0


    There is of course, considerable regional variation within the Northern Pontic race. For example, Don-Sursk Russians, who belong to the Northern Pontic race, have 50% pure light eyes and 29% fair hair.[4]

    The Northern Pontic race is forms a very important element among Russians (the Don-Sursk tpye of the Northern Pontic race is the 3rd most common among ethnic Russians[5]). It is also a very important element among the Mordva, and is found as a minority element among the Tatars and Chuvashis. [6]

    Sources:

    1. Mark, Karin Julisovna, Ethnic Anthropology of the Mordva. Published in Questions Concerning the Ethnic History of the Mordvinian People, a monograph realeased by the Academy of Sciences of the USSR in Moscow, 1960. p. 119, par. 6 - p. 12p, par. 1.

    2. Coon, Carleton Stevens, The Races of Europe, Chapter XII, Section 9. Available online here.

    3. Mark, Karin Julisovna, Ethnic Anthropology of the Mordva. Published in Questions Concerning the Ethnic History of the Mordvinian People, a monograph realeased by the Academy of Sciences of the USSR in Moscow, 1960.Table 28. p. 179,

    4. Bunak, Viktor Valerianovich et al, Origins and Ethnic History of the Russian People According to Anthropological Data, Table 51, p. 226. Moscow 1965, Academy of Sciences of the USSR.

    5. Ibid, p. 271, par. 7.

    6. Mark, Karin Julisovna, Ethnic Anthropology of the Mordva. Published in Questions Concerning the Ethnic History of the Mordvinian People, a monograph realeased by the Academy of Sciences of the USSR in Moscow, 1960

    Examples of the Northern Pontic race.

    Russians:







    (classified by Coon as "Nordic")

    Chuvash (classified by Coon as "Nordic"):





    kriegsmaschine - edit: First three images replaced as per Prodigal Sons request
    Last edited by Ewergrin; Saturday, December 13th, 2003 at 05:03 AM.

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    If you want the truth, I am very doubtfull about this northpontic.
    your pontid is an hither asiatic. Danubean is some sort of a very local, flat faced celtic type, but yes it is kurganid they have never been afar from hungary. Don-skurks type is for example more common in Kosovo than it is in serbia.
    What is bunak's nordic. From what i get it may be anything, but let me describe it is low rooted nosed, the nose is convex at the tip, the face is flat, the zygomata is lateral and high. I have to tell you that except the places where Bunak's fennotatar type has not been involved, it is rather hard to find such high zygomata in europe, except some parts of france and north Italy.
    Please provide us your kind of nordic, what ever it is.
    But, i am rather thankfull about the information you have supplied us about kurganids.
    Last edited by torrent; Friday, December 12th, 2003 at 06:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sober
    If you want the truth, I am very doubtfull about this northpontic.
    your pontid is an hither asiatic.
    No, it isn't. Having a convex nose does not make one Hither Asiatic (i.e. Armenoid) by default. You'll notice that unlike Hither Asiatics/Armenoids, the individuals I posted are relatively depigmented and broad-faced. They are also mesocephalic (Hither Asiatics are hyperbrachycephalic).

    Danubean is some sort of a very local, flat faced celtic type, but yes it is kurganid they have vnever been zfar from hungary. Don-skurks type is for example more common in Kosovo than serbia.
    You must be thinking of the Noric type.

    What is bunak's nordic.
    Bunak refrred to the Nordic type as 'the Scandinavian type' or merely as 'the Northern type.' It is distinguished from the Northern Pontic race by a higher facial index (longer face), somewaht greater staure and lighter hair color.

    From what i get it may be anything,
    No, see above.

    but let me describe it is low rooted nosed,
    False. The Northern Pontic race is not distinguished by a particularly low-rooted nose (though its members usually do posess a nasion depression). None of the individuals I posted have a low-rooted nose either.

    the nose is convex at the tip,
    About 20% of Northern Pontics have convex noses.

    the face is flat,
    No, the face is very strongly profiled, as much as it is among the most Europid peoples of the Caucasus.

    the zygomata is lateral and high.
    No, the zygomata are relatively flat, though the face is relatively broad.

    I have to tell you that except the places where Bunak's fennotatar type has not been involved,
    There is no 'Fenno-Tatar' type in Bunak's taxonomy.

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    IMO, none of the individuals I posted would look out of place in Britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prodigal Son
    IMO, none of the individuals I posted would look out of place in Britain.
    Of course not, because there are lots of immigrants in Britain. If you are talking about the native population, then you are sadly mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prodigal Son
    I have never in my life seen a native Briton looking like that, not even a Welshman. Especially the side profile is telling...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Of course not, because there are lots of immigrants in Britain.
    LOL. Do they look 'Mongol-compromised' or something Loki?

    If you are talking about the native population, then you are sadly mistaken.
    OK. Which one looks most 'un-British'?

    P.S. I wouldn't read too much in terms of pigmentation into the pictures. They are black and white, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I have never in my life seen a native Briton looking like that, not even a Welshman.
    LOL, do you think you can accurately infer pigmentation from a black and white picture? In any case, pure brunet forms are not that common among the Northern Pontic race. Less than 10% have dark eyes.

    Especially the side profile is telling...
    Really? What of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prodigal Son
    No, it isn't. Having a convex nose does not make one Hither Asiatic (i.e. Armenoid) by default. You'll notice that unlike Hither Asiatics/Armenoids, the individuals I posted are relatively depigmented and broad-faced. They are also mesocephalic (Hither Asiatics are hyperbrachycephalic).
    armenoid and hither asiatic are a bit different, hither asiatic is more kurganid with more prominent cheeks. Hither asiatic is some sort of taurid. you have several pontid types as far as i can see. your pontid type lies more within the limits of taurids.


    You must be thinking of the Noric type.
    your noric is Coons Halstat. If noric is a mixture of dinaric(which is rarely stable mostly shows various Up affinities) and nordic still it is a vicious circle what is your nordic. Noric is a regular Up dinaric (in fact it is Iranoafgan) mixture which lies on the depigmented side. otherwise according to you a dinaricied eastern mediterranean who is still highmesocephal in the depigmented form would make a halstatt.

    Bunak refrred to the Nordic type as 'the Scandinavian type' or merely as 'the Northern type.' It is distinguished from the Northern Pontic race by a higher facial index (longer face), somewaht greater staure and lighter hair color.
    low rooted nose like your west baltic who is clearly fennotatarid.


    False. The Northern Pontic race is not distinguished by a particularly low-rooted nose (though its members usually do posess a nasion depression). None of the individuals I posted have a low-rooted nose either.
    yes because they have enough mediterranean proper mixture.


    About 20% of Northern Pontics have convex noses.
    why not, regular iranoafgan mixtures. so what?


    No, the face is very strongly profiled, as much as it is among the most Europid peoples of the Caucasus.
    yes, i am blind.


    No, the zygomata are relatively flat, though the face is relatively broad.
    it is apperantly a broad face, they are sharpened in facial features because of the climeate and subcutaneous fatty tissue deprivation, otherwise your cromagnons are hardly reduced.


    There is no 'Fenno-Tatar' type in Bunak's taxonomy.
    yes, you call it nordic. it is clear why.

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    In any case, I don't give a damn about your opinion, one way or the other, Loki. Your understanding of racial anthropology is based on cronyism and sexual attraction, not anthropometry or genetics. To you a flat-faced, black-eyed swarthy Azeri is 'Nordish" just because you like him, and an Amerikwan mongrel skank is 'Nordish' because she is 'hot.' Your 'anthropological evaluations' are worth about as much as a retard's dissertation on differential calculus.

    With all due respect to you and others, this level of hostility is unacceptable as it stifles debate and makes people uncomfortable. Let's keep things civil so we can all have fun and reach rational conclusions. Thanks.
    -- Nordhammer
    Last edited by Nordhammer; Friday, December 12th, 2003 at 08:11 PM.

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