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Thread: Chirac set to ban Moslem headscarves in schools

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    Post Chirac set to ban Moslem headscarves in schools

    Chirac set to ban Muslim headscarves in schools
    BY AP IN PARIS

    A French presidential advisory group has recommended banning Islamic headscarves and conspicuous Christian crucifixes in schools.

    The 20-member panel, commissioned by President Jacques Chirac, agreed unanimously that France should impose a law banning "obvious" religious and political symbols from public schools and other public buildings.

    Such a law would forbid students from wearing headscarves, yarmulkes or large-sized Christian crosses. Small pendants like the Star of David would be permitted.

    The conclusions of the panel after six months of study and 120 hearings were expected to play a role in M Chirac's own decision on the hotly debated issue.

    "Secularism is the separation of church and state, but it is also the respect of differences," Bernard Stasi, the head of the panel, told a news conference.

    He added that the intention of the proposed law was for people of all religions to be able to "live together in public places."

    He said: “Muslims must understand that secularism is a chance for Islam.”

    France's largest secondary school teachers' union criticised the report for not going far enough in calling for secularism to prevail in public schools.

    “In France, in terms of secularism, there is a lot to do. Veils are just one problem, but not the only problem,” said Daniel Robin, national secretary of the SNES union.

    He said that several of France's departments still require religion to be taught in public schools and have clergymen on their payrolls.

    Jewish and Christian religious leaders have said in the past that they are opposed to ban on headscarves in schools, expressing instead concern about better integrating the Muslim community.

    The commission also recommended what would be a first for France - adding Jewish and Muslim holidays to the school calendar.

    Several girls have been expelled from public schools this year for wearing Islamic headscarves, fuelling debate over the notion of secularism, a constitutionally guaranteed principle that is a core value of modern-day France.

    Each year there are about 150 complaints involving head scarves, according to a French Education Ministry mediator.

    Proponents of a ban say that students who wear Muslim headscarves to school, just like civil servants who cover their heads on the job, are challenging the nation's secular underpinnings.

    There are also fears that head scarves signal inroads by Muslim fundamentalists in France's estimated 5 million-strong Muslim community - the largest in Western Europe.

    A 1999 ruling by the Council of State, France's highest administrative body, said that scarves should be banned only when they were of an “ostentatious character”, but left it up to schools to make that judgment on a case-by-case basis. The same rule applies to skullcaps and crucifixes.

    The panel concluded that the existing language left too much room for interpretation.

    Use of the world "obvious" in a law would clarify that religious symbols cannot be visibly worn at school, according to Le Figaro newspaper.

    M Chirac, who has made clear his opposition to blatant religious symbols in the classroom, said that he would address the nation next week with his own conclusions.

    On a state visit last week to Tunisia, M Chirac told a group of high school students that wearing a veil in France was seen as “a sort of aggression.”

    Photo: Alma Levy, 16, left, and her sister Lila, 18, who were expelled from their high school near Paris for wearing headscarves

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    I can imagine some idiots saying this is great news. It isn't! Forcing people to abandon part of their religion is violating their human rights. See the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Article 18
    Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
    Also notice that it is:

    ..a law banning "obvious" religious and political symbols from public schools and other public buildings..
    So along with expressing your religion openly, you're forbidden to express political views. Totalitarian Secularism is no better than Totalitarian Islamism or Totalitarian Christianity. If I ever go to France I'll wear a burqa just to piss everyone off.

    These girls in scarves never bother anyone, in fact it is the slutty girls who start all the fights in high school. I never had a Muslim girl call me a name or start some vile rumor about me, it was the sluts who did that simply because they were jealous of me for having self-respect. A Turkish immigrant friend in high school told me she got harassed about her scarf, always from boys and sometimes the popular girls would laugh at her. But that is a common experience for anyone who looks or acts a little bit "different."

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    Are you a liberal now : ), kidding, kidding. Well, I see your point, but I must say that it is also a matter of assimilation. They will live in their isolated ethnic communities, some sort of ghettos, and then practise a totally different lifestyle. They will feel discriminated.

    One can see it even in Sweden. Women who wear cover themselves from top-to-toe and look like some "ninjas". One Swedish woman told me that the children became scared when one of those came to pick up her child.


    Quote Originally Posted by ladygoeth33
    These girls in scarves never bother anyone, in fact it is the slutty girls who start all the fights in high school. I never had a Muslim girl call me a name or start some vile rumor about me, it was the sluts who did that simply because they were jealous of me for having self-respect. A Turkish immigrant friend in high school told me she got harassed about her scarf, always from boys and sometimes the popular girls would laugh at her. But that is a common experience for anyone who looks or acts a little bit "different."

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    I just see this as a way of limiting people's freedom of association, it's no different than having religion forced on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by volksdeutsche
    One can see it even in Sweden. Women who wear cover themselves from top-to-toe and look like some "ninjas". One Swedish woman told me that the children became scared when one of those came to pick up her child.
    I see those ladies occasionally, I have an American friend since elementary school who lives in Saudi Arabia (her father's business sent him & his family there) who dresses like that for her own protection (she is "Nordish"). If I had a bunch of Arab guys watching me all the time I would wear a sheet over my face too.

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    Maybe they'll go back to where they came from.
    .

    IHR Revisionist Conference, April 24, 2004, internet broadcast:

    http://www.internationalrevisionistconference.c om/

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    Libertarian thoughts then. Can we call it that?

    Yes, you should, Arab guys tend to be in your face. It is also their strong (it sounds like they are fighting, maybe it began as such because you had to scream in the deserts and it stayed that way?) language. I do not need to turn my head in a bus in Stockholm before I see some Arab woman with a bunch of screaming kids. They always try to not pay for the tickets too. The bus drivers give up at times. It is also interesting that only Somalian bus drivers do not check for your tickets. They just say (if they know the language, otherwise they show it by gesticulation) pass by. They do not understand that I would get a fine. So I tell them please stamp the book of tickets.

    The young Arab men do not take a no for an answer. They are also very protective of their Northern European women, until they eventually grow up and marry someone of their own, and the Swedish girl move on to some other Arab man, have a child with him, and then she take care of it, while he is somewhere else. This can happen in certain neighbourhoods where Swedish girls speak a way of language which is common among certain foreign groups. Some young Swedes follow that sub-culture. Then they have a hard time to get a proper job etc. I would imagine that the situation is similar in e.g. Germany. I do not even need to mention England, but there you have complete neighbourhoods in e.g. London where you do not even need to speak English.

    That is one scenario though. They have a different standard for their "own women" and women whom are foreign to their culture. Many are simply hypocrites.

    There is a rumour that a lot of Saudi Arabian men are part time homosexuals. Do you have any ideas about that?


    Quote Originally Posted by ladygoeth33
    I just see this as a way of limiting people's freedom of association, it's no different than having religion forced on you.

    I see those ladies occasionally, I have an American friend since elementary school who lives in Saudi Arabia (her father's business sent him & his family there) who dresses like that for her own protection (she is "Nordish"). If I had a bunch of Arab guys watching me all the time I would wear a sheet over my face too.

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    We had a member here who says he lives in Riyadh, I'm sure he can be a better source of information on Saudi homosexuality. I know the punishment can be beheading.


    White= sodomy legal Red= sodomy illegal

    Middle East___Lesbian___Gay Male___Maximum Penalty
    Bahrain_______Illegal_____Illegal____10 years
    Iran__________Illegal_____Illegal____Dea th
    Iraq__________Legal_____ Legal____Legal but taboo
    Israel_________Legal_____Legal
    Jordan________Legal_____Legal
    Kuwait________Illegal_____Illegal____7 years
    Lebanon______Illegal_____Illegal____1 year
    Oman________Illegal______Illegal____3 years
    Palestine_____Illegal______Illegal____10 years
    Qatar________Illegal______Illegal____5 years (some uncertainty)
    Saudi Arabia__Illegal______Illegal____Death
    Syria________Illegal______Illegal____1 year
    UAE_________Illegal______Illegal____Deat h
    Yemen_______Illegal______Illegal____Deat h

    Other countries with large Muslim populations:
    Turkey_______Legal_______Legal
    Azerbaijan____Legal_______Legal
    Uzbekistan____Legal_______Illegal___3 years
    Turkmenistan__Legal_______Illegal___Unkn own
    Tajikistan_____Legal_______Illegal___Unk nown
    Pakistan______Illegal______Illegal____De ath
    Malaysia______Illegal______Illegal____20 years/caning and fine
    Kyrgyzstan____Legal_______Illegal
    Kazakhstan____Legal_______Legal
    Indonesia_____Legal_______Legal
    Bangladesh____Illegal______Illegal____Li fe

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    The law is one thing and what people do in secret another. Sure, maybe he knows something about the issue.

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    this is a completely disgraceful law and i hope it is not implemented.

    its just a headscarf ffs whats the problem?

    stoopid, stoopid people....

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    Married Jewish women are supposed to wear a headcovering too. Although it's usually a wig, and so not for modesty but so only her husband gets to enjoy her real hair.

    I know old Catholic ladies who wear a 'babushka'. Some Christian women wear scarves or bonnets, especially Mormons and the Amish, but it's not common to see it outside of church or Amish areas. You see those people at rest stops while travelling by car through the East Central states like Pennsylvania and Ohio. They are very shy around outsiders and their children seem amazed to see women wearing pants and men without beards. They are very Germanic looking, too. :-)

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