View Poll Results: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was'

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  • Eastern Francia (843 - 919)

    6 4.41%
  • Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (800 - 1806)

    35 25.74%
  • Confederation of the Rhine (1806 – 1813)

    3 2.21%
  • German Confederation (1815 – 1866)

    8 5.88%
  • North-German Confederation (1867 – 1871)

    6 4.41%
  • German Empire (1871-1918)

    48 35.29%
  • Weimar Republic (1919-1933)

    4 2.94%
  • Nazi Germany (1933-1945)

    66 48.53%
  • Post-WW II (West) Germany (1949 till present)

    5 3.68%
  • German Democratic Republic (1955 - 1990)

    0 0%
  • Volga German Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1924 – 1941)

    2 1.47%
  • Austrian Realm (1806 till present)

    4 2.94%
  • Switzerland (1291 till present)

    14 10.29%
  • Other (which?)

    11 8.09%
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Thread: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

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    Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    'The Best Germany There Ever Was'

    Which German realm, kingdom, empire, republic or totalitarian state do you consider the best there has ever been? Motivate your choice! Do consider cultural and technological achievements, standard of living, national unity, and integrity of sovereignty etc. Please ignore problems of chronology.


    Eastern Francia

    Eastern Francia was the land of Louis the German after the Treaty of Verdun of 843, which divided the Carolingian Empire of the Franks into an East, West, and Middle. It is the precursor of the Holy Roman Empire and modern Germany. It was known variously as Francia Orientalis or the Kingdom of the East Franks. If the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire is taken to coincide with the rise of the Ottonian dynasty, The kingdom of East Francia lasted from 843 to the coronation of Duke Henry I of Saxony in 919; more commonly, the Holy Roman Empire is thought to begin in 962, with the Coronation of Otto the Great (translatio imperii).

    East Francia was divided into four duchies: Swabia (Alamannia), Franconia, Saxony and Bavaria (including Moravia and Carinthia); to which after the death of Lothair II in 869 were added the eastern parts of Lotharingia.

    This division persisted until 1268, the end of the Hohenstaufen dynasty.

    From the 10th century, East Francia became also known as regnum Teutonicum ("Teutonic kingdom" or "Kingdom of Germany"), a term that became prevalent in Salian times.

    Source: Wikipedia
    Holy Roman Empire (of German nation)

    The Holy Roman Empire was a mainly Germanic conglomeration of lands in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It was also known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation from the late 15th century onwards. It originated with the coronation of Charlemagne by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day, AD 800, and lasted until the abdication of Emperor-elect Francis II in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars. After the partition of the Frankish Empire by the Treaty of Verdun in 843, the de facto sovereignty of the Emperors became confined first to the central and later (and for most of the Empire's subsequent history) to the eastern portion of the former Frankish dominions.

    Before the Renaissance, Western Christians regarded the German kings who ruled the Holy Roman Empire as legitimate heirs of the ancient Roman Empire through a transfer of rule (translatio imperii) to Charlemagne. The Greek Byzantine Empire and Eastern Christians always rejected this claim. For centuries historians have treated the Holy Roman Empire as completely distinct from the Roman Empire of classical times.

    At its post-Carolingian peak, the Holy Roman Empire encompassed the territories of present-day Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Belgium, and the Netherlands as well as large parts of modern Poland, France and Italy. At the time of its dissolution it consisted of its core German territories and smaller parts of France, Italy, Poland, Croatia, Belgium, and the Netherlands.

    Source: Wikipedia
    Confederation of the Rhine

    On 12 July 1806, on signing the German: Rheinbundakte — the Treaty of the Confederation of the Rhine — 16 states in present Germany formally left the Holy Roman Empire and joined together in a confederation (the treaty called it the états confédérés du Rhin). Napoleon was its "protector". On 6 August, following an ultimatum by Napoleon, Francis II gave up his title of Emperor and declared the Holy Roman Empire dissolved. In the years that followed, 23 more German states joined the Confederation; Francis' Habsburg dynasty would rule the remainder of the empire as Austria. Only Austria, Prussia, Danish Holstein and Swedish Pomerania stayed outside, not counting the west bank of the Rhine, which was annexed by the French empire.

    According to the treaty, the confederation was to be run by common constitutional bodies, but the individual states (in particular the larger ones) wanted unlimited sovereignty.

    Instead of a (feudal, rather nominal) head of state, as the Holy Roman Emperor had been, its highest office was held by Karl Theodor von Dalberg, the Grand Duke of Frankfurt am Main and Napoleon's close ally. The office was called President of the College of Kings, styled Prince-Primate of the confederation, sort of a head of government. The 'Diet of the Confederation' (closest thing to a parliament) which Von Dalberg should have called together in Frankfurt am Main never met.

    The Confederation was above all a military alliance; the members had to supply France with large numbers of military personnel.

    In return for their cooperation some state rulers were given higher statuses: Baden, Hessen, Cleves and Berg were made into grand duchies and Württemberg and Bavaria became kingdoms; and/or states could be made larger by incorporating other — generally the many smaller, cfr. Kleinstaaterei — former imperial member states.

    After Prussia lost to France in 1806, many medium-sized and small states joined the Rheinbund. It was at its largest in 1808, including four kingdoms, five grand duchies, 13 duchies, seventeen principalities and the Free Hansa towns of Hamburg, Lübeck and Bremen.

    In 1810 large parts of northwest Germany were quickly incorporated into the Napoleonic Empire in order to better monitor the trade embargo with Britain, the Continental System.

    In 1813, when Napoleon's campaign in Russia failed and some of its members changed sides, the Confederation of the Rhine collapsed.

    Source: Wikipedia
    German Confederation

    The German Confederation (German: Deutscher Bund) was the association of Central European states created by the Congress of Vienna in 1815 to organize the surviving states of the Holy Roman Empire, which had been abolished in 1806.

    Situation in space and time
    Between 1806 and 1815, Napoleon had organized the German states into the Confederation of the Rhine, but this collapsed when Napoleon's Invasion of Russia failed in 1813. The German Confederation had roughly the same boundaries as the Empire at the time of the French Revolution (less what is now Belgium). The member states, drastically reduced to about three dozen from more than 300 (see Kleinstaaterei) under the Holy Roman Empire, were recognized as fully sovereign. The members pledged themselves to mutual defence, and jointly maintained the fortresses at Mainz, the city of Luxembourg, Rastatt, Ulm, and Landau. A federal diet under Austrian presidency (in fact the Habsburg Emperor was represented by an Austrian 'presidential envoy') met at Frankfurt.

    The Confederation was dissolved in 1866 after the Austro-Prussian War, and was 'succeeded' in 1866 by the Prussian-dominated North German Confederation. Unlike the German Confederation, this misguidingly named Confederation was in fact a federation and true state. Its territory comprised the parts of the German Confederation north of the river Main, plus Prussia's eastern territories and the Duchy of Schleswig, but excluded Luxembourg and the southern German states like Bavaria. Prussia's influence was widened by the Franco-Prussian War resulting in the proclamation of the German Empire at Versailles on January 18, 1871 which united the North German Confederation with the southern German states.

    All the constituent states of the former German Confederation became part of the Kaiserreich in 1871, except the Empire of Austria, Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

    Source: Wikipedia
    North German Confederation

    The North German Federation (in German, Norddeutscher Bund) came into existence in 1867, following the dissolution of the German Confederation. Formed by 22 states of northern Germany, it was effectively a transitional grouping, lasting only until the founding of the German Empire in 1871. However, it cemented Prussian control over northern Germany, and emanated that same control via the Zollverein (Customs Union) and secret peace treaties (agreed with the southern states the day before the Peace of Prague) into southern Germany. Notably, the Confederation excluded both Austria and Bavaria. Although it ceased to exist after the creation of the German empire, 1871, it was the building block for the German constitution of 1871. This constitution gave huge powers to the new Chancellor, Bismarck who was appointed by the President of the Bundersrat (Prussia). This was because, the constitution made the chancellor 'responsible' however not accountable to the Reichstag. This therefore allowed him the benefit of being the link between the Emperor and the people. The constitution however bar universal was relatively conservative. The Chancellor retained powers over the military budget, after the constitutional crisis that engulfed Wilhelm I in 1862. Laws also prevented certain civil servants becoming members of the Reichstag, those who were Bismarck's main opposition in the 1860's.

    The Federation came into being after Prussia defeated Austria in the Austro-Prussian War of 1866. Otto von Bismarck created the constitution, which came into force on 1 July 1867, with the King of Prussia, Wilhelm I, as its President, and Bismarck as Chancellor. The states were represented in the Bundesrat (Federal Council) with 43 seats (of which Prussia held 17). Most notably, Bismarck introduced universal manhood suffrage into the confederation for elections to the Reichstag. The Bundesrat membership was extended before 1871 with the creation of the Zollverein Parliament in 1867, an attempt to create closer unity with the southern states by permitting representatives to be sent to the Bundersrat.

    Following Prussia's defeat of France in the Franco-Prussian War of 1871, Bavaria, Württemberg, and Baden (together with parts of the Grand Duchy of Hesse which had not originally joined the Federation), now grouped together with the various states of the Federation to form the German Empire, with Wilhelm I taking the new title of German Emperor (rather than Emperor of Germany as Austria was not included).

    Source: Wikipedia
    German Empire

    The German Empire (German: Deutsches Reich colloquially Deutsches Kaiserreich) is the name conventionally given in English to the German state from the time of the proclamation of Wilhelm I of Prussia as German Emperor (January 18, 1871) to the abdication of Wilhelm II (November 9, 1918), a period of 47 years. The official name of the state in German was Deutsches Reich, but this continued in official use until 1943 and hence does not exclusively refer to the period of imperial rule.

    The phrase Second Reich is also sometimes applied to this period in English. The term was popularised by Arthur Moeller van den Bruck in the 1920s, and drew an explicit link with the earlier Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (the "First Reich"), as well as underlining his desire for the establishment of a "Third Reich". This latter term was subsequently adopted during the time of Nazi rule for propaganda purposes.

    Source: Wikipedia
    Weimar Republic

    The Weimar Republic (German: Weimarer Republik) is the common name for the republic that governed Germany from 1919 to 1933. This period of German history is often known as the Weimar period. The republic was named after the city of Weimar, where a national assembly convened to produce a new constitution [CENSORED].

    Despite its political form, the new Republic still called itself "Deutsches Reich", the same name used by the German monarchy before 1919. The phrase Weimar Republic is an invention of historians, and was not used officially during its existence. Deutsches Reich was usually translated to "The German Reich" in English-speaking countries during this era, with "Reich" no longer being translated as "Empire."

    This first attempt to establish a liberal democracy in Germany happened during a time of civil conflict, and failed with the ascent of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party in 1933. Although technically the 1919 constitution was not invalidated until after World War II, the legal measures taken by the Nazi government in 1933 (commonly known as Gleichschaltung) destroyed the mechanisms of a typical democratic system, so 1933 is cited as the end of the Weimar Republic.

    Source: Wikipedia
    Nazi Germany

    Nazi Germany, or the Third Reich – officially called the German Reich (Deutsches Reich) and later the Greater German Reich (Großdeutsches Reich) – refers to Germany in the years 1933 to 1945, when it was governed by the Nazi Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, NSDAP), with Führer Adolf Hitler as chancellor and, from 1934, head of state. The foreign policy pursued by Nazi Germany, based on the concept of Lebensraum, was among the leading causes of the Second World War.

    In addition to Weimar-era Germany proper, the Reich came to include areas with ethnic German populations such as Austria, the Sudetenland and the territory of Memel in the years leading up to the war.

    Other regions were acquired only after the outbreak of conflict, but had been part of Imperial Germany prior to the Treaty of Versailles and had varying German populations: Luxemburg, Eupen-et-Malmédy, Alsace-Lorraine, Danzig and parts of Poland. Other regions, particularly the rest of Poland, had never been part of a German state.

    Some other acquired regions, especially parts of Slovenia, had once been part of the Austrian Empire. In addition, from 1939 to 1945, the Reich ruled Bohemia and Moravia as a Protectorate, subjugated prior to the start of the world war. Czech Silesia was incorporated into the province of Silesia during the same period. By late 1943, Germany had even seized not only South Tyrol and Istria which had been under Austrian rule before 1918, but even Venice from its erstwhile ally Italy after it capitulated to the Allies.

    The Reich's borders had changed de facto well before its military defeat in May 1945, as the German population fled westward from the advancing Red Army and the Western Allies pressed eastward from France. By the end of the war, a small strip of land stretching from Austria to Bohemia and Moravia - as well as a few other isolated regions - were the only areas not under Allied control. Upon its defeat, the Reich was in a state of debellation and was replaced by occupation zones administrated by the United States, France, the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union. The prewar German lands east of the Oder-Neisse line and Stettin and its surrounding area were [CENSORED].

    The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich ("Thousand-Year Empire") in order to connect the German empire they wished to forge to the ones of old (the Holy Roman Empire and the Second German Empire) while alluding to envisioned future prosperity and the new nation's alleged destiny. The Holy Roman Empire, deemed the First Empire or First Reich, had lasted almost a thousand years from 843 to 1806. The term Tausendjähriges Reich was used only briefly and dropped from propaganda in 1939, officially to avoid persiflage and possibly to even avoid religious connotations. In speeches, books and articles about the Third Reich after 8 May 1945, the phrase has taken on a new meaning and the early Nazi professions about a "thousand year" empire are often juxtaposed against the twelve years that the Third Reich actually existed.

    The official name of Germany did not change after the Nazis came to power in 1933. It remained Deutsches Reich (which could be translated as either German Empire or German Realm), the same as it had been since 1871. It was only in 1943 that the Nazi government officially modified the name of Germany, calling it Großdeutsches Reich (Greater German Empire), which remained in use until the defeat of Nazi Germany in May, 1945.

    Third Reich referred to a continuation of a German or Germanic empire, the First Reich being that of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Second Reich that of the establishment of the German Empire in 1871 until its replacement by the Weimar Republic following the abolition of the Empire in the wake of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

    Source: Wikipedia
    West Germany

    West Germany (in German Bundesrepublik Deutschland or BRD; informally Westdeutschland) was the informal English name[1] for the Federal Republic of Germany, FRG, from 1949 to 1990. During this period there existed another German state, largely to the east of the FRG, called the German Democratic Republic, or GDR (informally known in English as East Germany). This division resulted from the ending of World War II and the prosecution of the Cold War. From 3 October 1990, after the reformation of the GDR's Länder, the GDR merged into the Federal Republic. Since this reunification, the Federal Republic of Germany (still the country's legal name) has been commonly known simply as Germany.

    West Germany's capital was Bonn. Germans sometimes now refer to the old West Germany as die Bonner Republik—the Bonn Republic. During the economic miracle of the 1950s West Germany became home to the world's fourth largest economy. West Germany also gained membership in the G8, NATO and was one of the founding members of the European Union.

    […]

    After the fall of the Berlin Wall on 9 November 1989, the reunification was quickly arranged: formally, the Federal Republic of Germany grew by annexing the territory of the former German Democratic Republic. This took place on 3 October 1990, and the four occupying powers officially withdrew from Germany on 15 March 1991. West Germany is considered the forerunner to modern Germany.

    Source: Wikipedia
    German Democratic Republic

    The German Democratic Republic (East Germany) (GDR; German: Deutsche Demokratische Republik, or DDR; known in English as East Germany) was a state which existed from 1949 to 1990. The German Democratic Republic was established in the Soviet occupation zone of Germany on October 7, 1949, following the creation in May 1949 of the Federal Republic of Germany ("West Germany") in the zones occupied by France, the United States and United Kingdom. Berlin (in practice, East Berlin) was claimed as its capital.

    It covered the current states of Germany Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Brandenburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia and Saxony and the eastern part of Berlin.

    The Republic was declared fully sovereign in 1955; however, Soviet troops remained based on the four-power Potsdam agreement. As NATO troops remained in West Berlin and West Germany, the GDR and Berlin in particular became focal points of Cold War tensions. The GDR was a member of the Warsaw Pact and a close ally of the Soviet Union. Following the fall of the Berlin Wall on November 9, 1989 and strong popular pressure, free elections were held on March 18, 1990, and the ruling Communist party, the SED, lost its majority in the Volkskammer (the GDR parliament) soon after. On August 23, the Volkskammer decided that the territory of the Republic would accede to the ambit of the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany on October 3, 1990. As a result of German reunification on that date, the German Democratic Republic officially ceased to exist.

    Source: Wikipedia
    Volga German Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic

    The Volga German Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (German: Autonome Sozialistische Sowjet-Republik der Wolga-Deutschen, Russian: Автономная Советская Социалистическая Республика Немцев Поволжья) was an autonomous republic established in the Soviet Union, with its capital at the Volga port of Engels (until 1931 known as Pokrovsk) in 1918 following the Russian Revolution, in the area of compact settlement of the large Volga German minority in Russia, which numbered almost 1.8 million by 1897. The republic was declared on January 6, 1924.

    After the Russian Revolution the deeply religious Volga Germans, 76% of whom were Christians of the Lutheran faith, immediately came into conflict with the anti-religious Bolshevik revolutionaries.

    As of 1919, pastors were labelled counterrevolutionary propagandists and sent to gulags in Siberia.

    During the Russian Civil War many Volga Germans enlisted with the White Army and, as a result, fierce attacks by the Red Army on Volga German communities took place. In the aftermath of the war, the famine that swept the U.S.S.R. took the lives of 1/3rd of the Volga German population.

    To the moment of declaration of the autonomy an amnesty was announced. However it eventually was applied to a small number of people. According to the politics of korenizatsiya, carried out in 1920s in the Soviet Union, usage of German language was promoted in official documents and German nationals were encouraged to occupy management positions. According to the 1939 census, there were 605,500 German nationals in the autonomy.

    The beginning of the Second World War (known in the former U.S.S.R. as the Great Patriotic War, 1941-1945) marked the end of the Volga German A.S.S.R. The Soviet government declared all Germans to be enemies of the state, which increased the persecution and fear of the Volga Germans among the general Russian populace. On August 28, 1941, Josef Stalin issued a formal Decree of Banishment, which abolished the A.S.S.R. and exiled all Volga Germans to the Kazakh S.S.R. and Siberia. Many were interned in labor camps merely due to their heritage.

    After the war, they were forced to sign contracts that promised they would never return to the Volga area.

    Following the death of Stalin in 1953, the situation for Volga Germans improved dramatically, and in 1964 a second decree was issued. It openly admitted the government's guilt in pressing charges against innocent people, and urged the Soviet citizens to give the Volga Germans every assistance possible in support of their "economic and cultural expansion". In 1965 the Decree of Banishment was officially made null and void, though the Volga German A.S.S.R. was never reestablished.

    Since the fall of the Soviet Union many Volga Germans have emigrated to Germany by taking advantage of the German Law of return, a policy which grants citizenship to all those who can prove to be a refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such a person. This exodus has occurred despite the fact that most Volga Germans either do not speak German or have a poor grasp of the language. In the late 1990s, however, Germany made it more difficult for Russians of German descent to settle in Germany, especially for those who do not speak some of the Volga dialect of German.

    Source: Wikipedia
    Austrian Realm

    Austria (German: Österreich, see also other languages), officially the Republic of Austria (German: Republik Österreich), is a landlocked country in Central Europe. It borders Germany and the Czech Republic to the north, Slovakia and Hungary to the east, Slovenia and Italy to the south, and Switzerland and Liechtenstein to the west. Its capital city is Vienna.

    The origins of modern Austria date back to the ninth century, when the countryside of upper and lower Austria became increasingly populated. The name "Ostarrichi" is first documented in an official document from 996. Since then this word has developed into the German word Österreich.

    Austria is a parliamentary representative democracy consisting of nine federal states and is one of six European countries that have declared permanent neutrality and one of the few countries that includes the concept of everlasting neutrality in their constitution. Austria has been a member of the United Nations since 1955 and joined the European Union in 1995.

    Origin and history of the name

    The German name Österreich can be translated into English as the "eastern empire", which is derived from the Old German Ostarrîchi. The name was Latinized as "Austria", so it has no etymological connection with the name of Australia (which correctly means The South). Reich can also mean "empire", and this connotation is the one that is understood in the context of the Austrian/Austro-Hungarian Empire, Holy Roman Empire, although not in the context of the modern Republic of Österreich. The term probably originates in a vernacular translation of the Medieval Latin name for the region: Marchia orientalis, which translates as "eastern borderland", as it was situated at the eastern edge of the Holy Roman Empire, that was also mirrored in the name Ostmark, for a short period applied after Anschluss to Germany.

    The current official designation is the Republic of Austria (Republik Österreich). It was originally known after the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire from 1918 as the Republic of German Austria (Republik Deutschösterreich), but the state was forced to change its name to "Republic of Austria" in 1919 peace Treaty of Saint-Germain. The name was changed again during the Austro-fascist regime (1934–1938), into Federal State of Austria (Bundesstaat Österreich), but restored after regaining independence and the birth of the Second Austrian Republic (1955–present).

    During the monarchy, Austria was known as the Austrian Empire (Kaisertum Österreich), however no official designation existed since the empire was strongly multiethnic. After the Ausgleich with Hungary in 1867, the empire became known as Austria-Hungary in reflection of the dual monarchy character. Some historians argue that the term The Kingdoms and Lands Represented in the Imperial Council and the Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen (Die im Reichsrat vertretenen Königreiche und Länder und die Länder der heiligen ungarischen Stephanskrone) was the correct official name for Austria-Hungary.

    Source: Wikipedia
    Switzerland

    Switzerland [...], officially the Swiss Confederation, is a landlocked alpine country in Western Europe. This small multi-lingual country, of a little over 7 million people, has four national languages, German, French, Italian, and Romansch. Swiss Standard German is written and used in formal situations, while the (significantly different) dialects commonly spoken are called "Swiss German". [...] It dates its independence to 1291; historically it was a confederation, and it has been a federation since 1848, with a current division into 26 cantons.

    Switzerland has a strong economy in finance and banking, rates highly in international economic standards despite its small size, and maintains a long and strong tradition of political and military neutrality. […]

    Confoederatio Helvetica, the country's official Latin name, means Helvetic Confederation. The use of Latin avoids having to favour one of the four national languages.[...] the German name of Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft translates literally as "Swiss Oath Fellowship" or "Swiss Commonwealth of the Covenant".

    Source: Wikipedia

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    Re: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    I voted for the German Empire and Nazi Germany on the grounds that both prospering states sought to safeguard the territorial integrity of ethnic German settlement areas in Europe.

    Like much of 19th century there were a multitude of technological inventions and cultural achievements during the German Empire (1871-1918), while there was a strong tendency in the society to develop into a classless society under the monarchy. There was zero illiteracy at the outbreak of WW I in 1914.

    Nazi Germany (1933-1933) effectively ended the anarchy, civil war, humiliation, misery, and suffering that characterized the entire Post-Versailles Weimar Republic. The economy was somehow kick-started by promoting the production of consumer goods, and not by investing in the armament industry as was previously maintained by some Anti-German historians and the like. The 30 percent unemployment rate was successfully reduced to zero within a few years. There were important technological inventions that continue to benefit humanity to this day. To my knowledge, the world’s first environmental study, an investigation into the effects of fertilizers on the Oder-Neiße drainage basins, was also carried out in Nazi Germany.

    There was zero illiteracy when Germany dispatched the Wehrmacht into polish-occupied (< sorry to mention!) ethnic German territories to make an end to the persecution of Germans by the polish military regime (< sorry to mention!).

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    Re: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    I mainly voted for the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation and Switzerland.

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    AW: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    I voted for NS-Germany ("Nazi" sounds so nasty), but also for "Other" - referring to ancient Germany before and during the Völkerwanderung, the original and uncorrupted.

    And I see National Socialism as an attempt to recreate the essence of this ancient Germania under the conditions of (post-) modernity.


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    Re: AW: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pervitinist View Post
    And I see National Socialism as an attempt to recreate the essence of this ancient Germania under the conditions of (post-) modernity.
    Care to explain why you think so? Cause I sincerely disagree with this assestment on many levels.

    Not least of which because Hitler referred more often to the Holy Roman Empire(the First Reich) as a worthy model than the primitive Germanics. That was mostly the fancy of Himmler and the SS.

    The Third Reich was largely a typical modern managerialist state, which cannot be compared with primitive tribal societies.

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    AW: Re: AW: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba View Post
    Care to explain why you think so? Cause I sincerely disagree with this assestment on many levels.
    Frankly, I couldn't care less.

    Not least of which because Hitler referred more often to the Holy Roman Empire(the First Reich) as a worthy model than the primitive Germanics. That was mostly the fancy of Himmler and the SS.
    You're completely missing the point. I wasn't talking about "worthy models" from the supermarket of ideas but about recreating an essence (meaning the essence of a certain ethos, way of life and worldview).

    National Socialism sees all "models" of statehood and government only as a means to an end: the preservation of the race. The only criterion of "worthyness" is how well the state serves this end. "Barbarism", "primitivity" are only to be measured according to this standard.

    The fundamental principle is that the State is not an end in itself but the means to an end. It is the preliminary condition under which alone a higher form of human civilization can be developed, but it is not the source of such a development. This is to be sought exclusively in the actual existence of a race which is endowed with the gift of cultural creativeness. There may be hundreds of excellent States on this earth, and yet if the Aryan, who is the creator and custodian of civilization, should disappear, all culture that is on an adequate level with the spiritual needs of the superior nations today would also disappear. We may go still further and say that the fact that States have been created by human beings does not in the least exclude the possiblity that the human race may become extinct, because the superior intellectual faculties and powers of adaptation would be lost when the racial bearer of these faculties and powers disappeared.
    If, for instance, the surface of the globe should be shaken today by some seismic convulsion and if a new Himalaya would emerge from the waves of the sea, this one catastrophe alone might annihilate human civilization. No State could exist any longer. All order would be shattered. And all vestiges of cultural products which had been evolved through thousands of years would disappear. Nothing would be left but one tremendous field of death and destruction submerged in floods of water and mud. If, however, just a few people would survive this terrible havoc, and if these people belonged to a definite race that had the innate powers to build up a civilization, when the commotion had passed, the earth would again bear witness to the creative power of the human spirit, even though a span of a thousand years might intervene. Only with the extermination of the last race that possesses the gift of cultural creativeness, and indeed only if all the individuals of that race had disappeared, would the earth definitely be turned into a desert. On the other hand, modern history furnishes examples to show that statal institutions which owe their beginnings to members of a race which lacks creative genius are not made of stuff that will endure. Just as many varieties of prehistoric animals had to give way to others and leave no trace behind them, so man will also have to give way, if he loses that definite faculty which enables him to find the weapons that are necessary for him to maintain his own existence.
    It is not the State as such that brings about a certain definite advance in cultural progress. The State can only protect the race that is the cause of such progress. The State as such may well exist without undergoing any change for hundreds of years, though the cultural faculties and the general life of the people, which is shaped by these faculties, may have suffered profound changes by reason of the fact that the State did not prevent a process of racial mixture from taking place. The present State, for instance, may continue to exist in a mere mechanical form, but the poison of miscegenation permeating the national body brings about a cultural decadence which manifests itself already in various symptoms that are of a detrimental character.
    Thus the indispensable prerequisite for the existence of a superior quality of human beings is not the State but the race, which is alone capable of producing that higher human quality.
    This capacity is always there, though it will lie dormant unless external circumstances awaken it to action. Nations, or rather races, which are endowed with the faculty of cultural creativeness possess this faculty in a latent form during periods when the external circumstances are unfavourable for the time being and therefore do not allow the faculty to express itself effectively. It is therefore outrageously unjust to speak of the pre-Christian Germans as barbarians who had no civilization. They never have been such. But the severity of the climate that prevailed in the northern regions which they inhabited imposed conditions of life which hampered a free development of their creative faculties. If they had come to the fairer climate of the South, with no previous culture whatsoever, and if they acquired the necessary human material – that is to say, men of an inferior race – to serve them as working implements, the cultural faculty dormant in them would have splendidly blossomed forth, as happened in the case of the Greeks, for example. But this primordial creative faculty in cultural things was not solely due to their northern climate. For the Laplanders or the Eskimos would not have become creators of a culture if they were transplanted to the South. No, this wonderful creative faculty is a special gift bestowed on the Aryan, whether it lies dormant in him or becomes active, according as the adverse conditions of nature prevent the active expression of that faculty or favourable circumstances permit it.
    From these facts the following conclusions may be drawn:
    The State is only a means to an end. Its end and its purpose is to preserve and promote a community of human beings who are physically as well as spiritually kindred. Above all, it must preserve the existence of the race, thereby providing the indispensable condition for the free development of all the forces dormant in this race. A great part of these faculties will always have to be employed in the first place to maintain the physical existence of the race, and only a small portion will be free to work in the field of intellectual progress. But, as a matter of fact, the one is always the necessary counterpart of the other.

    Those States which do not serve this purpose have no justification for their existence. They are monstrosities. The fact that they do exist is no more of a justification than the successful raids carried out by a band of pirates can be considered a justification of piracy.
    We National Socialists, who are fighting for a new philosophy of life must never take our stand on the famous 'basis of facts', and especially not on mistaken facts. If we did so, we should cease to be the protagonists of a new and great idea and would become slaves in the service of the fallacy which is dominant today. We must make a clear-cut distinction between the vessel and its contents. The State is only the vessel and the race is what it contains. The vessel can have a meaning only if it preserves and safeguards the contents. Otherwise it is worthless.
    Hence the supreme purpose of the folkish State is to guard and preserve those original racial elements which, through their work in the cultural field, create that beauty and dignity which are characteristic of a higher mankind. We, as Aryans, can consider the State only as the living organism of a people, an organism which does not merely maintain the existence of a people, but functions in such a way as to lead its people to a position of supreme liberty by the progressive development of the intellectual and cultural faculties.
    What they want to impose upon us as a State today is in most cases nothing but a monstrosity, the product of a profound human aberration which brings untold suffering in its train.
    We National Socialists know that in holding these views we take up a revolutionary stand in the world of today and that we are branded as revolutionaries. But our views and our conduct will not be determined by the approbation or disapprobation of our contemporaries, but only by our duty to follow a truth which we have acknowledged. In doing this we have reason to believe that posterity will have a clearer insight, and will not only understand the work we are doing today, but will also ratify it as the right work and will exalt it accordingly.
    (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf vol 2, ch. 2)

    The point is not that ancient Germany is taken "as a model" like some silly Völkische romanticists did drinking mead and running around in bear hides. National Socialism is archaic Germanic-ness brought to life in a (post-) modern world.

    The Third Reich was largely a typical modern managerialist state, which cannot be compared with primitive tribal societies.
    That's a completely unenlightened and superficial view, as if someone was saying "the Catholic Church today is just a big enterprise not to be compared with the gang of twelve of that old Galilean Dervish".

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    Re: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    Tough decision. I like many of them for many different reasons. But I wanted to be consistent in my voting.

    I went with Switzerland and Other.

    My other, like Pervitinist's, was the ancient Germania — a loose collection of small autonomous states bound by cultural, linguistic, and ethnic ties but with no legalistic unification. And many of the individual states were also far less involved in legalistic unification in the lives of their individual citizens/subjects. (It was also quite a bit larger than all the others, if I'm not mistaken, which makes it a good ego-boost as well! )

    I choose Switzerland because of their similar approach to liberty and decentralization.

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pervitinist View Post
    Frankly, I couldn't care less.
    Likewise, I could care less what you think, but here we are!


    You're completely missing the point. I wasn't talking about "worthy models" from the supermarket of ideas but about recreating an essence (meaning the essence of a certain ethos, way of life and worldview).
    I know and understand what you're talking about. And yes Ive read Mein Kampf as well.

    The point is not that ancient Germany is taken "as a model" like some silly Völkische romanticists did drinking mead and running around in bear hides. National Socialism is archaic Germanic-ness brought to life in a (post-) modern world.
    This still does not follow. I'm not going to go into much about this since ironically Leofric presented the basis of my argument above. The Ancient Germanics were largely collected into loose collections of small autonomous communities.

    Therefore if one wants to restore the archaic essence of such, you simply cannot do so within a modern managerialist state, no matter how much one deludes themselves into thinking so - simply because the basic logic behind both systems are so remarkably different.

    Only within a within a more decentralist context is this possible, like what exists within Switzerland as Leofric argued.

    That's a completely unenlightened and superficial view
    Ive just demonstrated that no it is not.

    , as if someone was saying "the Catholic Church today is just a big enterprise not to be compared with the gang of twelve of that old Galilean Dervish".
    But yet people constantly lay this charge against the Church.

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba View Post
    And yes Ive read Mein Kampf as well.
    But not the "Table Talks".
    The Ancient Germanics were largely collected into loose collections of small autonomous communities. (...) Only within a within a more decentralist context is this possible, like what exists within Switzerland as Leofric argued.
    Therein he strongly advocates decentralism, to the point of sneering at central administration officials. He says that only the means of power - army and police - must be in the hand of the Reich. Anything else must not be centralized.

    For example, when at the end of the war the "Volkssturm" (a militia) was erected, it was not a matter of Berlin, but every Gauleiter (governor) was supervising the creation of a regional force.

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Poll: 'The Best Germany There Ever Was?

    Here is the Table Talk Book online, very interesting, and searchable
    http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/books/table/css/table.htm

    And as a side note, the whole leader's principal is a decentralized approach, Hitler knew that one man can only effectively lead another 30, at most. This is very different to all the beurocratic organizations we have nowadays, who want to do everything, and command everyone directly, just look at the EU.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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