View Poll Results: Do you belive in Evolution

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    124 73.81%
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Thread: Do You Believe in Evolution?

  1. #331
    Bloodhound Jäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelfgar View Post
    Why are mutations necessarily bad if they increase adaptability?
    That mutations are always bad seems to be a classical ID "argument", however, we can observer the opposite quite well in bacteria and their resistance to antibiotics.
    The most common birth defect in humans also counters the usual gibberish about a decrease in information from gene alterations: Trisomy 21, and there is of course: Trisomy 3q, Trisomy 9p, Trisomy 10p und Trisomy 12p, Trisomy 8, Trisomy 9 and Trisomy 18.
    Those gene defects do result in a non-functioning human, however, it gives room for further mutations.

    And Darwinism isn't the only theory of Evolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Schindewolf
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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  3. #332
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    Current evolution theory has nothing to do with science.

  4. #333
    Senior Member Theunissen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    That mutations are always bad seems to be a classical ID "argument", however, we can observer the opposite quite well in bacteria and their resistance to antibiotics.
    No, it isn't. The argument is that mutations are an insufficient means for having new organs and systems emerge in an organism.

    Concerning the resistance of bacteria to antibiotics, there are two possible problems with that argument:
    1. The resistance to antibiotics in bacteria isn't due to mutation, it's the original bacteria that was already resistant. What the antibiotics do is stop the mutated bacteria from reproducing.
    2. A mutation that gives the bacteria resistance to antibiotics can come with other problems, since genetic code can actually be an input to several different processes within the organism. As an analogy: A mutation prevents teeth from growing, hence that organism is from now on "resistant" to tooth decay.

    Bear in mind Mutation = damage to genetic code; commonly a copying mistake. It's like damages to a self-copying computer program code. And from that we are expecting new software to arise. Evolutionists expect new accounting programs and computer games to arise from simple self copying algorithms, whose emergence they can't and don't want to have to explain in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    The most common birth defect in humans also counters the usual gibberish about a decrease in information from gene alterations: Trisomy 21, and there is of course: Trisomy 3q, Trisomy 9p, Trisomy 10p und Trisomy 12p, Trisomy 8, Trisomy 9 and Trisomy 18.
    Those gene defects do result in a non-functioning human, however, it gives room for further mutations.
    And Darwinism isn't the only theory of Evolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Schindewolf
    Eh, no. Under a regime of natural selection those severe birth defects result in early death and non-reproduction. That boils down to total loss of any information carried.

    The concept of information as used by ID proponents is a bit difficult to grasp. It's more than just data floating around. Information here means meaningful, useful design features of an organism or rather the respective code for producing it in the organism. The question of the debate is: How did it come into being? Is there an intelligent source for it (design inference)? Or did it just happen as result of a chain of unintelligent physical processes that have no intelligent source as they can also be observed under lab conditions without the interference of intelligent agents (evolutionary hypothesis) ?

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  6. #334
    Bloodhound Jäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theunissen View Post
    Concerning the resistance of bacteria to antibiotics, there are two possible problems with that argument:
    1. The resistance to antibiotics in bacteria isn't due to mutation, it's the original bacteria that was already resistant. What the antibiotics do is stop the mutated bacteria from reproducing.
    2. A mutation that gives the bacteria resistance to antibiotics can come with other problems, since genetic code can actually be an input to several different processes within the organism. As an analogy: A mutation prevents teeth from growing, hence that organism is from now on "resistant" to tooth decay.
    1. How would some bacteria cells be immune and the others are not? Do you know how bacteria replicate? They are single cell organisms! A bacteria makes a copy of itself, then how can a certain cell be different to its siblings? Mutation!
    We can observer imunisation in the Petri-dish starting from one single cell of bacteria! This is not just in humans who get treatment, but a very controlled laboratory experiment.
    2. Yes, it can and it can not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theunissen View Post
    Eh, no. Under a regime of natural selection those severe birth defects result in early death and non-reproduction. That boils down to total loss of any information carried.
    That's why I wrote it gives room for additional mutations.
    Fact is: we can observe the increase of Chromosoms.
    Fact is: we can observe (advantageous) mutations.
    Conclusion is: an organism can increase its number of Chromosomes and change the order of its genetic code (even advantageously).

    The factual premise for Evolution is there. Then we have findings of life forms which indicate change (and similar genetic code): the evidence supports the logical conclusion from this premise.

    Yes, most mutations are negative, but we only need a few positive ones anyway. Schindewolf speculated that catastrophic events (e.g. the flipping magnetic field of Earth) are needed to increase the amount of mutations and thus to increase the chance of advantageous ones.
    To postulate that no mutation is/was successful at all has no empirical or logical basis and is "I want it to be true" bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theunissen View Post
    The concept of information as used by ID proponents is a bit difficult to grasp. It's more than just data floating around.
    Yes, I already said that religions, as well as ID, define what they need to be true to say its true. Tautologies all around.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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  8. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Furthermore: most of us want to stay alive quite badly. Since many religions promise advancement/relief/virgins/etc. in the afterlife, life is a theological problem and the obvious answer is suicide. Thus Christianity had to make suicide a sin, and Islam put strict conditions on it.

    So I wouldn't say that it is our subjective judgement to call life advancement, but there is objectively no other way to advance without assumptions about an afterlife. We can only observe life, not not-life. So:
    Yes, by subjective I didn't mean that it is without foundation, but that this foundation is not absolute. It is dependent on the subject, i.e. those who are alive. Perhaps it is objective in the sense that it is intersubjectively true, but that's the best we can do. I do not want to argue that life and death have equal value, but that in order to establish the value of life the notion of evolution is not a sufficient point of reference. I think the 'subjective' truth of life as advancement is actually illustrated by your examples of religion. For Christianity to consider life valuable, it is dependent on an external cause that is the originator of this value. Suicide is a sin because you sin against God given life. Without such a transcendent justification of life (and we need a justification of life in order for its continuity to be considered advancement) there would be no reason to prefer life over death. Without actually embracing this specific christian position, I fail to see how evolutionary theory can replace this justification, since - like I initially put forward - life and death are equal outcomes of natural selection.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    From observation, logic and instinct.
    These are methods to attain them, but that doesn't bring us any closer to an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    I am not sure what your point is though. As it is with all knowledge we gain: we might be wrong.
    I attempted to answer this in the text above. Perhaps as an addition: I am not debating the truth of the knowledge we gain by studying evolution, which I tend to accept. I'm rather putting to discussion its scope.

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  10. #336
    Funding Member Gefjon's Avatar
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    What do anti-evolutionists say about this, eh?

    Rapid Evolution Is Real…These Species Changed in Front of Our Eyes

    Evolution doesn’t have to take a hundred millennia. Some species can biologically adapt to new environments in a few short years, here’s how.

    The evolutionary process is commonly understood as one that takes hundreds of thousands of years. For some species, however, we’re seeing evolution happen much faster. This is what’s called rapid evolution where major environmental changes in predation, food, or climate can alter the natural selection to favor genes that were previously disadvantaged. It can happen in a very short amount of time.

    For example, in a period of five years, male Polynesian field crickets in Hawaii lost their ability to make noise to avoid parasitic attacks. This is one of the fastest evolutions in the wild ever recorded. One gene mutation led to a silent cricket, and the silence helped it avoid the parasitic attacks that were killing other crickets.

    Unfortunately, there was an issue. The female crickets preferred the song, so without it the silent males needed to change their behavior. They started shadowing the singing males and mating with the attracted females, therefore passing on their mutation. This is an example of rapid evolution. The process took just 5 years! And now, 90% of the population is songless.

    This fast-moving evolution isn't what Charles Darwin envisioned back in 1859. He thought any changes would take many generations, which sounds like a long time -- but it doesn’t have to be. Darwin knew very little about genetics. He was observing patterns in the wild, but he couldn’t pinpoint how long evolution could take. But now, with advances in modern tech and molecular biology, scientists can.

    https://www.seeker.com/videos/earth/...nt-of-our-eyes

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  12. #337
    Senior Member Ward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    1. So we can say that to consider life as advancement from an evolutionary perspective cannot be objectively established (it's not 'desired by evolution'), but subjectively: as we are subjects of evolution and alive, we posit the continuity of life as advancement.

    2. In doing so we turn is into ought. It's the famous problem of Hume. But then the question arises in response to the following:

    When men select (on the basis of knowledge gained by studying evolution) where do their criteria come from? Since they go beyond what is and start to determine what ought to be by themselves, they cannot simply take these criteria from the process of evolution, which only establishes what is. So the telos is derived from somewhere else even though it is realized by way of evolution.
    I read the Wikipedia article that you linked to, and while I understand Hume's argument, it's difficult for me to accept the notion that the "ought" can be severed from the "is". From an evolutionary perspective, when someone says what ought to be, he is saying something that can could influence future events. If someone claims that communism ought to be, he isn't actually going beyond what is, he is expressing a certain mutation of human thought that will compete with other mutations.

    We can use our recognition of evolution in the same way that we use our recognition of seasonal changes. At some point in history, man recognized the pattern of seasonal changes, and from this recognition he began planning his food and shelter activities to increase his chance of survival. In evolution we recognize a pattern of life and death, and we can also use this recognition to increase our chances of survival. We have enough evidence to assume the existence of a general survival instinct, but due to thought mutations as to "what ought to be," some people strive for communism, some people for free markets, some people for Germanic life, and so on; but of course for most people, "what ought to be" is whatever societal leaders say it should be.

    In any case, Hume poses an interesting thought experiment, and I'm pretty sure that's why you brought it up. But until we unlock the secrets of the entire universe and ascertain the ultimate telos (if such a thing exists outside of our minds), we should probably just operate under the assumption that life is preferable to death. And while evolutionary theory cannot give us all the answers, it can and does discredit certain religions and belief systems that claim to have all the answers. One thing it does not discredit, however, is a belief in blood and race.
    — Always outnumbered but never outclassed —

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