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Thread: Valhalla and Heathenry today

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    Valhalla and Heathenry today

    As we all know, fallen warriors that were chosen by the Valkyries went to Valhalla or Sessrumnir. To get killed in battle was nothing hard to archieve in times like our ancestors lived, but how is it today? If you live a normal life, you normally wont get slayn on the battlefield. So you can honor the gods all your life, follow the old ways and practice all traditions, but will never recieve the highest gift. That's what I think is a little disturbing about germanic heathenry. What do you think about this? Have the standards for entering Wodan's and Freyja's halls changed according to our time? Or do just have to accept that for most of us the doors will be closed forever and we have to go to hel?

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    Re: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    Read the lore a little more in depth Gundahar, there are more places in the afterlife than just Valhalla and Hel. There is Nastrond and Gimli as a quick example. It was believed that some people go to live with specific Gods and Goddesses based on certain "criteria" (what kind of life they lead, what kind of person they are, who their patron god was). Like with Virgins and Un married women going to live with Gefjion, for example.

    Personally I do believe many people new to Heathenry have a very Christian view of the afterlife. They think it is Valhalla (heaven) and Hel (Hell), that Hel is some bad place where you go if you're not "good enough for Valhalla". That it is 50/50 but this is not the case. You see, you have this view and mentality too.
    If you live a normal life, you normally wont get slayn on the battlefield. So you can honor the gods all your life, follow the old ways and practice all traditions, but will never recieve the highest gift.
    I don't say this as an insult but it is something I am not surprized with. My view on this is, who is to say Valhalla is the highest gift? It is only but one of many different realms in the Germanic afterlife that our ancestors believed in. War was an every day thing for our ancestors and yes, men who died in battle were respected a great deal, they fought and died defending their people / tribe and naturally they were given a great deal of honour, respect and reverence for that. That does not mean one who does not die in battle is any less of a person than a Warrior. The farmer who works the fields from sunrise to sunset assists just as much to the tribe as the warrior and I have always had a great deal of respect for men and women like that. I'm sure the Warriors saw Valhalla as the Ultimate just like the Farmers and Lovers saw living with Freyr to be the ultimate. There is no final ultimate afterlife realm, only depending on the individuals worldview, temperment and beliefs.

    There were realms associated with all different types of people among our folk. Warriors, Farmers, Poets and Lovers, Women and Children. Don't spend so much time focusing and dwelling on Valhalla becasue if you do, you will only take time and energy away from more productive things.

    The standards are always the same and always will be. Why did Germanics fight in battles and die? What reasons were there to fight? Why should someone get into the Hall of the great slain if they are not slain and with good reason behind it? And to be honest, dying in battle did not always mean one would get into Valhalla anyways.

    Another thing is you need to find the symbolism in a place like Valhalla and not take it so literally. Myth is symbolic, that which is never literal but is always true. It (Valhalla) is one realm associated with one type of people (Warriors), there are many in our mythology. Take the time to read about them all and study them. Don't get caught up in and help the modern trend of Christian worldview in Heathenry. I was at one time, you'll grow out of these thoughts like I did the more you read, study and get back into nature thinking about them.

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    Re: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    Quote Originally Posted by Gundahar View Post
    As we all know, fallen warriors that were chosen by the Valkyries went to Valhalla or Sessrumnir...
    Have the standards for entering Wodan's and Freyja's halls changed according to our time? Or do just have to accept that for most of us the doors will be closed forever and we have to go to hel?
    My immediate thought in response to your question was to take the word warrior in the widest sense.

    The concept 'warrior' can be taken on many levels - the most obvious is that of the spiritual warrior.

    Not only that, but death can be taken metaphorically too.

    We can 'die' when we kill off our previous lives.

    So we can die for Odin by killing off our non-Odinic past and make that an offering to the god.

    One of the best 'treatises' on the 'Warrior' is the following;

    You shall seek your enemy, you shall wage your war - and for your own thoughts! And should your thought be defeated, your honesty shall still proclaim its triumph in that!

    You shall love peace as a means to new wars. And the short peace more than the long.

    For you I do not counsel work, but rather battle. For you I do not counsel peace, but rather victory. May your work be a battle, may your peace be a victory!

    One can be silent and sit still only when one has arrow and bow: else one chatters and quarrels. May your peace be a victory!

    You say it is the good cause that hallows even war? I say to you: it is the good war that hallows every cause.

    War and courage have accomplished more great things than love of one's neighbour. Not your pitying but your bravery has so far saved the unfortunate...


    [Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra, from 'On War and Warriors']


    So we see that it is very important to take the Warrior Ethic with us into the modern world and apply it to our own situations.

    But, this is not sufficient, methinks, to answer your question because the myth of Valhalla points towards the Ragnarok.

    Could it be that we have to kill off the Warrior aspect itself in order to enter a process which inevitably leads to the Ragnarok and then to the peaceful rebirth that follows?

    After Ragnarok, the Seeress says;

    I see Earth rising a second time
    Out of the foam, fair & green;
    Down from the fells fish to capture,
    Wings the eagle; waters flow.

    At Ida's Field the Aesir meet:
    They remember the worm of Middle-Earth,
    Ponder again the great twilight
    And the ancient runes of the high god.

    Boards shall be found of a beauty to wonder at,
    Boards of gold in the grass long after,
    The chess boards they owned in the olden days,

    Unsown acres shall harvests bear,
    Evil be abolished, Baldur return
    And Hropt's hall with Hod rebuild,
    Wise gods. Well, would you know more?

    Haenir shall weild the wand of prophecy,
    The sons two brothers set up their dwelling
    In wide Windhome. Well, would you know more?

    Fairer than sunlight, I see a hall
    A hall thatched with gold in Gimle:
    Kind Lords shall live there in delight for ever.

    Now rides the Strong One to Rainbow Door,
    Powerful from Heaven, the All-Ruler:
    From the depths below a drake comes flying
    The dark dragon from Darkfell,
    Bears on his pinions the bodies of men,
    Soars overhead. I sink now.


    [from 'Voluspa']


    Is peace the ultimate goal of the Warrior?
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    AW: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    Personally I think that we shouldnt downgrade the warrior to just a spiritual thing. Valhalla is reserved for heroic warriors and to be brave and even heroic in the face of danger or death is nothing easy. So I think if we twist it around that you could enter Valhalla through "just" beeing a good heathen, it would be disrespectful to the real heros. If we see it as hvedrungur had written it, that not Valhalla is the highest gift, but just a reward for a certain group and that there are other equal rewards for those that were not heros and slain on the field, its not disturbing anymore.

    Again personally I think that Valhalla/Sessrumnir can be seen as the highest gift, because the ancient germans were a warlike people. I dont think that we can even distinguish between warriors, farmers and so on in these times. As I see it, they were both farmers and warriors. They grew crops but they were also ready to take their weapons for their freedom and to protect their land and families.

    Who knows what the future will bring. Maybe we will have to fight for our cause again or maybe our descendants. Then the gates of Valhalla might open once again for heros slain on the field.

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    Re: AW: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    Quote Originally Posted by Gundahar View Post
    Personally I think that we shouldnt downgrade the warrior to just a spiritual thing...
    Maybe we will have to fight for our cause again or maybe our descendants. Then the gates of Valhalla might open once again for heros slain on the field.
    Do you think that the Germans who died fighting for the Reich went to Valhalla - particularly the Germans of the SS who believed in Wotan?

    Why do you see spirituality as a "down-grading" from warfare?
    I would've thought that within the context of religion spirituality would be valued higher than expertise in killing?

    When you say "fight for the cause" of Heathenism, do you mean that Heathens have to kill non-Heathens?

    Who is stopping Heathens from being Heathens today?

    If there are such people preventing us, then should we kill them?

    Should we emulate the suicide bombers of Islam?

    I'm suggesting that the battle-field may not be quite so literal today [if it ever was].
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Re: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    I don't think one can make dying in battle symbolic. To our ancestors, you either died in battle and went to Valhalla or you didn't. Dying means death, being literally killed by an enemy in battle.

    So we can die for Odin by killing off our non-Odinic past and make that an offering to the god.
    We shouldn't have to "kill off our non odinic past" becase we shouldn't have a "non odinic past" (even though we do). We were robbed of our natural way of life and we are living in very un natural times far removed from our organic state. Our ancestors couldn't kill of such a past becasue it didn't exist for them and so such a belief holds no water with me becasue I am a traditionalist. Not everything about the Integral Germanic culture (that includes the spiritual aspects / heathenry) is Symbolic. The warrior being slain and taken to Valhalla is literal in a sense, that one must really be slain in battle for the folk to be viewed as going to Valhalla. Our ancestors didn't think Person A was going to Valhalla becasue they defeated a Sickness or were a Warrior becasue they could overcome something difficult. Every day life was difficult... only those who's blood was spilt on the soil in defence of their tribe would be honoured as Felled warriors. The idea of the "Warrior" is a literal one.

    Personally I think that we shouldnt downgrade the warrior to just a spiritual thing. Valhalla is reserved for heroic warriors and to be brave and even heroic in the face of danger or death is nothing easy. So I think if we twist it around that you could enter Valhalla through "just" beeing a good heathen, it would be disrespectful to the real heros.

    Because if we all thought like that, many people would believe they are all going to Valhalla and again, this would re enter the Christian worldview of "Good heathens go to Valhalla and bad Heathens go to hel" which just isnt the case.
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    Re: AW: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Do you think that the Germans who died fighting for the Reich went to Valhalla - particularly the Germans of the SS who believed in Wotan?
    In short, No. No one in that group truely believed in Wotan. Hitler himself spoke out against the old gods:

    It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan [father of the gods in the German lore]. Our old mythology ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund.
    The Third Reich and NS germany merely used Symbols of the ancient Germanic peoples as a way to bring about Nationalism and with that to bring power to their group. They took advantage of the Volkisch period in Germany to gain power, they used Heathenry to do that while not respecting it nor honouring the Gods in any way. They'd have gone straight to the pits of Nastrond.


    Now please, keep Nazi talk for the other forums, this is the section for serious Heatheny discussions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by :hve­rungur: View Post
    I don't think one can make dying in battle symbolic. To our ancestors, you either died in battle and went to Valhalla or you didn't. Dying means death, being literally killed by an enemy in battle.
    The Sagas it is true, describe much warfare; however the numbers of fighters given are usually very small, and most the battles are internecine, and more like gang warfare occuring between two different districts of one town [eg., Egil's Saga], and therefore between the same race.

    Do we want to go back to that?
    Also, I don't believe that the ancient Germanics were so literalist - the mythologies are meant to teach truths by allegory, not to be taken literally.

    We shouldn't have to "kill off our non odinic past" becase we shouldn't have a "non odinic past" (even though we do). We were robbed of our natural way of life and we are living in very un natural times far removed from our organic state. Our ancestors couldn't kill of such a past becasue it didn't exist for them and so such a belief holds no water with me becasue I am a traditionalist.
    Isn't the fact that we are using the Roman alphabet here and not the Runes indicative of the opposite?

    Not everything about the Integral Germanic culture (that includes the spiritual aspects / heathenry) is Symbolic. The warrior being slain and taken to Valhalla is literal in a sense, that one must really be slain in battle for the folk to be viewed as going to Valhalla.
    The idea being that all those warriors assembled in Valhalla would fight at the Ragnarok.
    After Ragnarok, as the Voluspa says, peace would reign; so pacifism was the goal to which those fallen warriors were saved.
    Surely all this serves an allegorical end.
    The Eddas were not meant to be a Bible or Koran to be believed in dogmatically & literally - they were stories full of wisdom for those who could interpret it, just as is Tolkien's work.
    Indeed, the ancient Germanics did not have a Bible and did not believe in dogmatic religion - they were not 'literalists'.

    Quote Originally Posted by :hve­rungur: View Post
    In short, No. No one in that group truely believed in Wotan. Hitler himself spoke out against the old gods
    Himmler thought differently.
    There is no doubt that some SS believed in Wotan and saw their battle in the East as a kind of Ragnarok.

    The Third Reich and NS germany merely used Symbols of the ancient Germanic peoples as a way to bring about Nationalism and with that to bring power to their group. They took advantage of the Volkisch period in Germany to gain power, they used Heathenry to do that while not respecting it nor honouring the Gods in any way.
    Again, this is not true if we study the work of Wiligut and the legacy of the Thule society.

    Now please, keep Nazi talk for the other forums, this is the section for serious Heatheny discussions.
    The subject of this thread relates to "heathenry today" - so we need to look at recent history.
    Whether you like it or not World War II was a significant conflict which had a bearing on today's Heathenism.

    I will speak about the Third Reich if it is relevant in whatever forum I please; my question here was certainly relevant [particulary as this is 'Philosophy & Worldview'].

    I personally believe that all the German soldiers who died in WWII went to Valhalla.

    When did Germanic soldiers stop going to Valhalla?

    Indeed, I could ask also whether any Germanic-American soldiers who die in Iraq today will go to Valhalla?

    Do you believe in Valhalla literally?
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Re: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    What about the fact that no one could hold any high standing in the NSDAP if they were a member of any Odinist / Heathen / Pagan groups in Germany?

    NS Germany fought against the revival of the old ways.

    Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft (Germanic Faith-Community) is a German Germanic Pagan Reconstructivist society. They claim to be the oldest Germanic Neopagan organisation still operational.

    It was founded in 1907 by professor Ludwig Fahrenkrog (1867-1952) in Germany. In the 1930s they were heavily suppressed by the Nazis. In 1933, Rudolf von Sebottendorf was arrested and exiled. The Nazis banned works of Odinist writers, for instance Lanz von Liebenfels, Ernst Issberner-Haldane and Reinhold Ebertin. Being a current or former member of an Odinist organisation disqualified anyone from holding rank or office within NSDAP. In 1936 the runemaster Friedrich Barnharb Marby, a follower of Guido von List, was arrested and sent to a concentration camp at Flossenberg. He was released from the Dachau concentration camp in 1945. Many other members ended up in the concentration camps, and at least one member was killed therein.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani...s-Gemeinschaft

    Himmler thought differently.
    He was an occultist and not a follower of the true pre-christian Germanic ways. Using him as an example is rather useless.

    Do we want to go back to that?
    What should I do? Go around and fight all the "mud" people for the "aryan race" and scream moronic slogans like some fifth grade child? No thanks. I'm not NS or a White Nationalist or anything else, I'm a Volkisch Germanic heathen and I couldn't care about the whole "white race", I'm concerned with my folk, my tribe and my family, the folks who look to revive the integral ways of our people. I have more respect for the African shaman and the Japanese Shinto folk than I do for any Blonde hair, blue eyed German who goes to church, worships satan or anything else.

    Whether you like it or not World War II was a significant conflict which had a bearing on today's Heathenism.
    Only in the use and bastardization of ancient Symbols.

    Again, this is not true if we study the work of Wiligut and the legacy of the Thule society.
    Again, the Thule Society isnt a legitimate reconstruction of the pre christian Germanic spiritual ways which are a part of a larger integral culture.

    I will speak about the Third Reich if it is relevant in whatever forum I please; my question here was certainly relevant [particulary as this is 'Philosophy & Worldview'].
    Philosophy and Worldview from the Heathen standpoint, again I'm a traditionalist. The third reich, ns germany and anything else isnt my interests and have nothing to do with heathenry. I'm for reconstructing the old ways not just taking the name of dietys and symbols and trying to create something new.

    I personally believe that all the German soldiers who died in WWII went to Valhalla.
    And I don't, they were not heathens and their war wasn't a just one, it is also known that many soldiers did not want to fight for the NS govt but it was either that or jailtime. Someone fighting in a war against their will isnt likely to go to the hall of proud, brave slain warriors.

    I can already see you're not a serious heathen and just an eclectic occultist pagan.


    So with that said, I'm finished with this thread. If anyone wants to discuss something usefull and not get into the Hitler / NS worshipping or the eclectic occultist crap send me a PM or start another thread.
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    AW: Re: AW: Valhalla and Heathenry today

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    Do you think that the Germans who died fighting for the Reich went to Valhalla - particularly the Germans of the SS who believed in Wotan?
    Why wouldnt some of them have entered Valhalla, if they believed in the old ways and died fighting against an overwhelming force? Where is it written that you have to fight for a just and ethical cause? If so, then no Viking that died during a raid would have entered Valhalla. I think all that counts is that you die in a heroic way, that means fighting even when everything is against you. We can explain why such bravery was most important for our ancestors. Often the whole fate of a tribe was at stake and if the lines broke and the warriors fled, total defeat, extinction and slavery were the results. So they needed warriors who would fight on until death, some who would even prefer death to submission.

    To say, that only the good ones, who fought for a good and just cause would enter Valhalla sounds very christian to me. Valhalla is not a place for the good ones, but for the brave ones.

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