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Thread: Cognate Gods Names (Ind-Eur)

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    Cognate Gods Names (Ind-Eur)

    Orthodox academics either outright reject or just have not considered the idea that deity names of many different cultures around the world could be etymologically related other than within a few language families like Germanic (Grimm) and Indo-European (Bruce Lincoln). However, I have found many possible name connections during my studies.

    Although I am interested in finding cognates worldwide I am here only going to make this thread/topic to focus on Indo-European (Germ, Celt, Ital, Greek, Slav, Balt, Ind, Iran, Armen, Illyr, Phryg, Thrac, Hitt).

    A problem I have found with this subject is that often major/well known gods in one culture turn out to be connected with minor/lesser known gods in other/s and so the problem is that I often don't have very complete lists of the minor gods of the various cultures. So in this thread/topic I am asking for your help in either compiling completer lists of minor gods of pantheons, or offering possible suggestions for specific deity-name correspondences in the languages/cultures where there are gaps in the lists of cognates I post (& evidence for/against the "possible" ones).

    (Also if there are any god(desse)s/deities you'd like to know if I already have or can find correspondences for or my ideas/opinions on?)

    ----

    #1 Njord/Nereus (sea/storm):

    definate cognates:
    Nor/German Njord/Nerthus, Celt Llyr/Lir/Lara, Greek Nereus/Narkissos, India Nara, Armenia Nar Tsovinar/Nor Mard, Phrygia Sangarios,

    possible:
    Roma Lara?, Balt Juras mate?, Slav Jurata? or Zarya?, Hittite Inara?

    * Lara = a Naiad.

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    Re: cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    Good idea for a thread.

    Here's a straight forward commonplace one;
    Russian Perun - Lithuanian Perkunas - Norse [with a gender shift] Fjorgynn.

    Our British Llyr, Irish Lir, has an interesting parallel in an alternative name for the Norse sea God Aegir - Hler. However, I am informed that this was a mere coincidence.

    I've seen interesting phonological comparisons between our Woden and Athena. Does anyone have any detail on this one? I can't remember where I read it now.

    I've seen discussions too, of Apollo having a Hittite [or Luwian] predecessor, of similar name.

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    Re: cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    ON Tyr/OE Tiw/OHG Zio/PG *Tiwaz=Gk Zeus = Lat Dies and Jupiter (Dies Piter) = Sansk Dyaus= PIE *Dewos/Dyeuz

    Sansk Manu=PG *Mannaz/Mannwaz ("Mannus" in Tacitus)

    Gk Ouranos (Uranus)= Sansk Varuna

    Gaulish Taranis/Tanarus= PG *Thunraz= ON Thorr/ OE Thunnor/ OHG Donar

    OHG Ostara/ OE Eastre/ ON Austri/ *Austra = Lat Aurora=Gk Eos

    ON Hel/ OE Hel/ E Hell/ OHG Hellia/ Goth Halja/ PG *Khalja/Khaljo= Indian Kali

    Have you looked at Grimm's Teutonic Mythology? A must-read!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-I...opean_religion
    http://www.etymonline.com/
    http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/index.php
    Excellent website.
    -Hyge sceal ðe heardre, heorte ðe cénre, mód sceal ðe máre, þý úre mægen lytlaþ. -The Battle of Maldon
    -I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrows of longing for the other shore. -Thus Spake Zarathustra

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    Re: cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    Unfortunately what you want doesn't, and never did exist. The gaps you find are present for that very reason. In short: "Germ, Celt, Ital, Greek, Slav, Balt, Ind, Iran, Armen, Illyr, Phryg, Thrac, Hitt" all took disparate and on occasion antithetical spiritual paths leading to the ultimate disintegration of the Aryan substrata (when and where it was present), and linguistic substitutions and anihilations (when and where cognates probably had an affect of some degree). Moreover, your desire to find "world-wide" cognate connections for dieties will prove most futile. For a further explanation on this, see Evola's "Revolt Against the Modern World" as well as Alfred Rosenberg's "Mythos of the 20th Century" for the Philosophical/Spiritual reasoning; and below for the academic.

    Anthony Arlotto, Introduction to Historical Linguistics (New York 1971). [particularly good introduction for non-linguists]

    Emile Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society (London 1973). [Contains cultural as well as linguistic material.]

    Carl D. Buck, A Dictionary of Selected Synoynms in the Principal Indo-European Langauges (Chicago 1949).[A wonderful old reference work. Lists and discusses synonyms and cognates for a variety of ideas (arranged topically) in over 30 Indo-European langauges. Now available in an affordable paperback reprint edition.]

    N. E. Collinge, The Laws of Indo-European (Amsterdam 1985). [Catalogs real and alleged sound changes in IE families and languages. Fairly technical]

    Antoine Meillet (trans. S. N. Rosenberg), The Indo-European Dialects (Huntsville 1967). [This and the two following works are by one of the great masters of the field, but are still relatively clear and accessible.]
    ----- (trans. Gordon B. Ford, Jr.), The Comparative Method in Historical Linguistics (Paris 1967).
    -----, Introduction a l'etude comparative des langues indo-europeennes (Paris 1937).

    Holgar Pedersen, The Discovery of Language (Bloomington 1959). [Includes historical perspective on how these discoveries were made.]
    Andrew Sihler, New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin (New York 1995).

    Oswald Szemerenyi, Comparative-historical linguistics : Indo-European and Finno-Ugric (Amsterdam 1993).

    Calvert Watkins (ed.), The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots (Boston 1985). [Note the extensive introductory essay. Much of the same material can be found in the first and third editions of AHD.] Werner Winter (ed.), Evidence for Laryngals (The Hague 1965). [Evidence from the various IE languages. Highly technical.]

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    Re: cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    Many thanks for your responses/replies! I will deal with each of those deities (Eos, Thor & Donar (not same name!), Uranus, Mani, Tiwaz, Apollo, Athena/Othin, Perun) in the next posts but the more there are the more time it is going to take as I am a bit of an obsessive/compulsive perfectionist (tho patience is not a strong virtue of mine either).

    Suut:
    I have found plenty of proof that it does (so) exist and I hope the forthcoming posts will convince "expert/authority/professional" sceptics.

    For a faster (spoiling) preview of what is coming (and/or for correspondences outside of Ind-Eur) I have already posted some in past at:
    http://www.simaqianstudio.com/forum/...php?t5526.html
    (I also posted it on allempires and stirpes). But don't look if you don't want coming surprise/s to be spoiled!

    ----

    #2 Ares (war/hunting/storms):

    Definately:
    German Ear/Irmin/Jarl, Greek Ares/(Eris/Iris/Eros), Slav Yarovit, Armenia Ara(y), Hittite Jarri,

    Probably:
    Celt Eriu/Arawn/Arthur, India Jaras/Arjuna, Iran Eraj/Iraj,

    Possibly (not):
    Italia Virtus?

    * Etruscan Laran.

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    Re: Cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    Thor & Donar (not same name!)
    Yes, they are indeed. If you have a theory to the contrary, I'd like to hear it. Because I'm afraid there aren't too many scholars that would deny that these are one and the same.
    -Hyge sceal ðe heardre, heorte ðe cénre, mód sceal ðe máre, þý úre mægen lytlaþ. -The Battle of Maldon
    -I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrows of longing for the other shore. -Thus Spake Zarathustra

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    Re: Cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    thiedischer:
    it will give me great pleasure to present my evidence that Thor and Donar are prob not (originally) cognate (root) names. I will go away now and try to organise it (again) and then come back and post it. Actually I have found quite a few conventional derivations/etymologies to be prob wrong like that.

    ----

    # 3 Freyr/Priapos (fertility):

    Definately:
    German Freyr/Freyja/Fjorgyn/Frikka, Greek Priapos/Aphrodite, Italia Flora, Slav Spor/Perchta/Perun, India Prajapati, Hittite Peruwa,

    Possibly:
    Albania Prende, Iran Peri? or varan?

    Note: no Celtic version yet. Bran/Brendan and Freyr seem similar in names, mariner natures and genealogies, but I don't know of Bran being also/alt connected with fertility.

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    Re: Cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    okay I made an fast effort and organised the Donar and Thor entries:

    #4 Poseidon/Donar (waters/storms):

    probably:
    German Donar/Thunor/Ran/(Dan/Danp/Forseti), Celt Eil Don/Eilton /Addanc/Brendan/Manawyddan/Danann, Greek Poseidon, Balt Udens mate, India Danu; Italia Tonans/Totans/Fortuna/Portunus/Ritona/Neptune, Illyria Tomor.

    * Poss (not) Hurri Aruna?

    (For interchange/variation of vowels &/or of consonants &/or of waters/storm see outside of I-E especially: African Tano, Maori Tuna, etc.)

    ----

    #5 Thor/Indra (storm/war/hunt, sea/storm):

    Probably:
    German Thor/Tyr/(Hoder/Vidar), Greek Doris/Adrastea/Aether, Celt
    Taranis/Andrasta/Adraste/Arthur/Idris, India Indra/Durga, Iran Tur/Druj/Thraetona, Armenia Tork, Illyria Shurdi, Hittite Tarhunt/Taru, Phrygia Adrastea,

    Possibly:
    Thracia Zibelthiurdos?, Slav Trojanu/Stribog/Triglav?

    * (Outside of I-E note particularly similarity with: Finn Turisas/Taara, Mesopotamian Adar, Assyrian Asshur, Phoenician Thur, African Adro.)

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    Re: cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    I've seen interesting phonological comparisons between our Woden and Athena. Does anyone have any detail on this one? I can't remember where I read it now.
    I doubt it. Woden, Odin etc. are derived from Proto-Germanic *wôdanaz, alternatively *wôdinaz (< *wôdenaz), constructed on the nominal *wôthuz, which conveyed the notion of "spiritual rage" or something very similar. The Proto-Indo-European root assigned to this word is *wet- (< older *H2wet), which denoted "to blow, inspire, spiritually arouse". The older form survives into Greek: *H2wet-mo- > *awet-mo- > *aetmos > atmos ("breath, vapor"), as in English atmosphere, but the alleged association with Athena seems fairly remote. Afaik, there have been no successful attempts at explaining her name.

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    Re: Cognate gods names (Ind-Eur)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur-Robin
    it will give me great pleasure to present my evidence that Thor and Donar are prob not (originally) cognate (root) names.
    You are hard pressed to convince anyone that these central items are not cognate. The attempt to disprove this constitutes a gratuitous and perhaps even irrational act in itself. ON Thórr derives from PGmc *thunraz, as does OHG Donar. The sound changes involved are perfectly regular.

    Imo, most of your purported cognates call for serious doubt, especially as you give virtually no etyma, nor any kind of explanation. Please forgive me if that sounds harsh.

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