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Thread: Modern Day Descendants of the Goths?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Þoreiðar View Post
    The Visigothic Code, a set of laws written by Visigothic kings in the mid-7th century, gives some indication of the situation at the time:

    76 LAWS OF THE JUDGES. [BOOK III]

    FLAVIUS RECESVINTUS, KING.

    II. It shall be as Lawful for a Roman Woman to Marry a
    Goth, as for a Gothic Woman to Marry a Roman.

    The zealous care of the prince is recognized, when, for the
    sake of future utility, the benefit of the people is provided for;
    and it should be a source of no little congratulation, if the
    ancient law, which sought improperly to prevent the mar-
    riage of persons equal in dignity and lineage, should be abro-
    gated. For this reason, we hereby sanction a better law;
    and, declaring the ancient one to be void, we decree that if
    any Goth wishes to marry a Roman woman, or any Roman
    a Gothic woman, permission being first requested, they shall
    be permitted to marry. And any freeman shall have the
    right to marry any free woman; permission of the Council
    and of her family having been previously obtained.


    Judging from this text, it seems clannish marriage practices were gradually going out of vogue by this time, but also that there were in fact laws in place to prevent marriage between the Gothic population and the Roman population in previous times (in reference to the "ancient law" that is described). How common interethnic marriages actually were, even after the laws regarding marriage were softened up, is harder to say. But I suppose if there weren't much opposition to interethnic marriages among the population, the king would hardly see the need to produce any law regarding it.
    Very informing historical source, thank you Þoreiðar.

    Considering DNA I am not sure but I read once 23andme Iberian eventually considers visigothic origins within the category.

    Just found this, that could be related to Visigoths :

    Germanic haplogroups in Iberian population by region today ;

    Aragon : about 18%
    Extremadura : about 15%
    Majorca : about 12%
    Galicia : about 11%
    Valencia : about 10%
    Asturias : about 8%
    Northwest Castille : about 6%
    West Andalusia : about 6%
    North Portugal : about 5%
    East Andalusia : about 2%
    Northeast Castille : <1%
    Catalonia : <1%
    Basque country : <1%
    South Portugal : <1%

    Above 10% is great input IMO even though not sure if that comes from Visigoths or not.

    Source : The genetic legacy of religious diversity and intolerance: paternal lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula.

    -https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19061982
    -https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/figure/fig1/

  2. #62
    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
    Just found this, that could be related to Visigoths :

    Germanic haplogroups in Iberian population by region today ;

    Aragon : about 18%
    Extremadura : about 15%
    Majorca : about 12%
    Galicia : about 11%
    Valencia : about 10%
    Asturias : about 8%
    Northwest Castille : about 6%
    West Andalusia : about 6%
    North Portugal : about 5%
    East Andalusia : about 2%
    Northeast Castille : <1%
    Catalonia : <1%
    Basque country : <1%
    South Portugal : <1%

    Above 10% is great input IMO even though not sure if that comes from Visigoths or not.
    How did you even arrive at those percentages from the percentages given in the figure of that study?

    The only Y-haplogroups that are mostly - but by no means, entirely so - exclusive to Germanics or indicative of Germanic ancestry, are I1, R1b-U106 and R1a-Z284. Since neither I nor R1b are broken down enough to even discern the relevant subclades in that, very old, study, it's impossible to tell us anything about Germanic ancestry. But I know from other studies, that none of these subclades are of any consequence in Spain.

    Besides that, Y-Haplogroups are a very bad indicator of actual ancestry. If you have a small, mostly male, invader population living among a larger settled population, Y-haplogroup replacement could happen very fast via polygamy and exclusion of native men from reproduction.

    But the autosomal genetics would become less and less invader-like because already in the first mixed generation, the offspring would only be half-invader. If that man mixes with another of those more numerous local wives, he'd still be of an invader-haplogroup but already only a fourth invader in overall ancestry.

    That's precisely what happened in Iberia during the Bronze age, when the Y-DNA became overwhelmingly Steppe-like(most subclades of R1b) but without changing the modern Spanish DNA very much from their pre-Bronze Age ancestors.

    During the Germanic invasion of Spain, not even such Y-DNA replacement happened so the actual genetic of it seems to be about zero.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
    'Cause we were never asked, No brother, we were told!
    What do they know of Europe, Who only Europe know?



    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    The only Y-haplogroups that are mostly - but by no means, entirely so - exclusive to Germanics or indicative of Germanic ancestry, are I1, R1b-U106 and R1a-Z284. [...] I know from other studies, that none of these subclades are of any consequence in Spain.
    But how can this be? There came at the minimum 250k Goths to the Iberian peninsula. And the local population at that time would ot have exceeded 5 million, so that the Goths were 5 percent. Did they dissolve into thin air?
    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Besides that, Y-Haplogroups are a very bad indicator of actual ancestry. If you have a small, mostly male, invader population living among a larger settled population, Y-haplogroup replacement could happen very fast via polygamy and exclusion of native men from reproduction.

    But the autosomal genetics would become less and less invader-like because already in the first mixed generation, the offspring would only be half-invader. If that man mixes with another of those more numerous local wives, he'd still be of an invader-haplogroup but already only a fourth invader in overall ancestry.
    The Goths are entirely different from the Normans, though. The Normans were truly a small, mostly (actually almost exclusively) pack of male invaders. The Goths though in fact were not that small in number, and they were not gangs of juveniles with too much testosterone, but they migrated as complete, compact nations. Which means they brought their wives (and even children) with them, and what is more, they did not much interbreed with the locals at first, which also was until 585 not allowed, because only then the Goths in Spain became catholic. That means: after the same time-span within which we know for sure the Normans were already romanized, we know for sure that the Goths in Spain were not.

    Still after they became catholic, which finally meant they could (and certainly did) interbreed now with locals, they ruled for another 130 years as distinct ethnic group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    During the Germanic invasion of Spain, not even such Y-DNA replacement happened so the actual genetic of it seems to be about zero.
    That would be very strange and surprising indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spjabork View Post
    But how can this be? There came at the minimum 250k Goths to the Iberian peninsula. And the local population at that time would ot have exceeded 5 million, so that the Goths were 5 percent. Did they dissolve into thin air?
    How do we know either of this? A local population of 5 million seems halfway credible, but there never were 250k Goths migrating to Spain. Where did you get the latter number?

    Even for the well-organised Romans it was impossible to travel with armies that size. To sustain 250k people on the move is a logistic nightmare even today, let alone in the early medieval. It's all speculation of course but in the opinion of any historian of the last 150 years, at the most 50.000 Goths travelled to Spain. Perhaps 10.000 of them grown men and warriors.

    Already Delbrück realised this in the late 19th century:

    Wenn Zahlen in der Weltgeschichte häufig so sehr unsicher überliefert sind, so haben sie dafür den Vorteil, daß sie sich gegenseitig kontrollieren. Die vielfach in die Geschichte eingeschwärzten phantastischen Zahlen fallen, sobald man eine einzige vergleichbare gefunden hat, die wirklich zuverlässig ist. Wenn die Goten bei Adrianopel höchstens 15000 Mann stark gewesen sind, so sind damit die sämtlichen in die Hunderttausende gehenden Zahlen der Heere der Völkerwanderung gestrichen.
    Denn es ist unzweifelhaft, daß die Westgoten eines der zahlreichsten und mächtigsten der germanischen Wandervölker waren. Weder die Ostgoten, noch die Vandalen, noch die Burgunder, noch die Langobarden, weder Radagais, noch Odoaker können wesentlich stärker gewesen sein, ja sie müssen sogar meist erheblich schwächer gewesen sein.
    Es ist möglich, daß an der Schlacht Teile des westgotischen Volkes nicht teilgenommen haben, ein Bruchteil war sogar nördlich der Donau zurückgeblieben. Diese aber wurden ersetzt durch die Ostgoten, die sich ihren Stammesgenossen angeschlossen hatten.
    The Goths are entirely different from the Normans, though. The Normans were truly a small, mostly (actually almost exclusively) pack of male invaders. The Goths though in fact were not that small in number, and they were not gangs of juveniles with too much testosterone, but they migrated as complete, compact nations. Which means they brought their wives (and even children) with them, and what is more, they did not much interbreed with the locals at first, which also was until 585 not allowed, because only then the Goths in Spain became catholic. That means: after the same time-span within which we know for sure the Normans were already romanized, we know for sure that the Goths in Spain were not.

    Still after they became catholic, which finally meant they could (and certainly did) interbreed now with locals, they ruled for another 130 years as distinct ethnic group.
    The Normans probably came directly from Scandinavia or strongly Scandinavian influenced colonies in Britain, so they were largely pure, to a relatively small area. That even they didn't leave a large genetic or cultural footprint, makes the case all the more clear for the Visigoths.

    But 50.000(maximum) people is a drop on the hot stone among a population of 5 million natives or more, especially if you consider that genetically those Goths wouldn't have been anywhere near being genetically purely Germanic/northern European.

    So, whether they mixed in Spain from the beginning or not plays little role, if they were already mixed when arriving there.

    They travelled from the Baltic shore to the Ukraine, then to the Balkan, then to Italy, then to southern France, then to Iberia.
    Often they sustained huge losses but raidly filling up their numbers again. That would have been impossible without accepting others(yes, often other Germanics but still) into their ranks.

    That would be very strange and surprising indeed.
    Literally zero would be extreme, yes but you get the idea.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
    'Cause we were never asked, No brother, we were told!
    What do they know of Europe, Who only Europe know?



    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


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